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Old September 7th, 2011, 01:07 AM   #1521
54°26′S 3°24′E
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Only about 135 remote km of the ~520 km E6 Oslo-Trondheim have less than 4000 AADT. Along RV 3 the length with < 4000 AADT is less than 250 km, but this where all the semi trucks go because it is shorter and less hilly. Surely the traffic would be at least 6000 AADT and increasing on the whole route on the opening day, and on most places more, if they built a motorway throughfare. The increase will come from collection of traffic from both current E6 and Rv 3 and transfer from the massive TRD-OSL air traffic, Norway's busiest air route. Some US interstates have in the order of 2000 AADT.

Such a motorway can only be built along the Rv 3 corridor as the E6 is too steep and will never be the preferred choise for truck traffic unless a very long tunnel is bored. Furthermore, the terrain along the current Rv 3 corridor is ideal for road construction and will be considerable cheaper than the 20 M€/km discussed above. Moreover, there will not be any significant local environmental conflicts. Both issues are the opposite along Gudbrandsdalen which is narrow, winding, and have more precious Norwegian farms...

If Norway become serious with its infrastructure it should build such a motorway together with a possible HSR. We can afford it, and it will pay off in the long run.

It might seem unrealistic under the current government, but it is still the right thing to work for.


Now, dear Elvis and I have discussed this before (just follow the link in my signature and see the surrounding discussion), so I am already logging off this discussion.....
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Old September 7th, 2011, 02:26 PM   #1522
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17km new Rv2 (E16) starts construction this autumn


Easternmost section Slomarka - Kongsvinger (Map: Statens Vegvesen)

This section has yet again gotten upgraded specifics (started of as a 2-lane expressway) and is now going to be built as a 20 meter wide motorway with 100km/h speed limit. Includes 3 2-plane intersections and a round-about as the road enters Kongsvinger. Plan is to open this section for trafic during 2014.

As for the remaining Nybakk - Slomarka, it's stipulated to start construction sometime between 2014-2019...
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Old September 7th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #1523
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Now, dear Elvis and I have discussed this before (just follow the link in my signature and see the surrounding discussion), so I am already logging off this discussion.....
I most certainly don't intend to restart THAT debate, I was merely pointing out that I don't think we'll ever see a Norwegian motorway network of such extent. No matter who's in power.
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Old September 8th, 2011, 09:42 AM   #1524
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I most certainly don't intend to restart THAT debate, I was merely pointing out that I don't think we'll ever see a Norwegian motorway network of such extent. No matter who's in power.
This is where people power should come into effect, the problem is people here are to timid and the govt never listens.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 09:46 AM   #1525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
In Norway the average cost of 1 kilometre of Motorway is €19,5 million (150 million NOK).
Yes, about four times as much as typically in Europe. That explains a lot.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 12:47 PM   #1526
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The average in Germany is € 26.7 million per kilometer.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 01:31 PM   #1527
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The average in Germany is € 26.7 million per kilometer.
Well...

That is not the building cost but kind of a national economic cost analysis. It is the total sum including administrative cost, planning cost for 20 years, etc. The actual average building cost is 6.7 million per km. In addition, about 5 million comes from noise barriers and telematics.

Your mileage may vary. Cost to build the A100 trough the city of Berlin is 100+ million euro per kilometre.

Anyway, the decision to build a road is typically not done based on the cost but on the cost vs benefit analysis. The costs are real, and the benefits are speculative.
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Old September 9th, 2011, 05:37 PM   #1528
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Originally Posted by KiwiRob View Post
This is where people power should come into effect, the problem is people here are to timid and the govt never listens.
Well, since Norway is and has been working pretty well over the past decades, I don't really see either as a major issue... I'm not saying things cannot (and possibly even should) be improved - also in terms of road construction - but not even that will lead to thousands of kms of motorway.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 03:32 AM   #1529
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You gotta be kidding, "possible even should"? Sounds like you are quite happy with the current situation, even on the road situation and development. The only reason Norway can be percieved to "work pretty well" is that massive oil investments can pay for an equal massive public sector. Still, there seems to be very little left for infrastructure. The ironic fact is that the current government did not win the popular vote in 2009, neither did they do so in 2005, i.e. they are only in power due to the election system.

Now this government has produced another dissapointing KVU (Consept choice study).
This time for the corridor 120 km Trondheim-Steinkjer, the busiest traffic corridor of central Norway. http://www.vegvesen.no/_attachment/261687/binary/464557
More detailshttp://www.vegvesen.no/Vegprosjekter...er/KVU-rapport

Here the road and railway authorities recommend the modest "moderniseringalternativet"
On most of the route (Stjørdal -Steinkjer), they will only go for 1+2 / 1+1. Traffic is in many places already above 12 000 AADT which is the 30 years limit for building four lanes in Norway. Perhaps even more strange is Trondheim-Stjørdal, where they only will have a narrow motorway, although the traffic is already approaching 20 000 AADT, which is the limit for a normal motorway. Expansion here from the current mostly two-lane road is delayed to phase two. i.e. some time after 2020, "because the stretch is already tolled". What is the point with the Norwegian highway standards when they never seems to be applied for new projects, at least not in our region?

What they should have pursued is of course a motorway for the whole length, with full width Trondheim-Stjørdal. This would only cost 25 % more. The argument they have against it is that they claim that the increase from 90 km / h to 100 km /h would only lead to 14 % time savings. However, then they are not looking at congestion issues, the fact that 1+1 roads are easily blocked (in this case often without alternative routes), and that the motorway speed limit most likely will be higher than 100 in a few years. Why the hell waste a lot of money on a road that will be outdated in a few years?

Most worrisome perhaps, is that they recommend Stjørdal-Åsen following the old winding coastal route in the first phase which I thinkt is senseless. The right thing to do here would clearly be to build a motorway tunnel which would be much safer and faster, and they plan dig a railway tunnel here anyway.

With the chosen alternative they will spend almost as much on railway as on road. However, even with the most optimistic figures the projected traffic on railway is less than 25 % even with high road tolls, and not very dependent on concept selection.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 08:58 AM   #1530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ElviS77 View Post
Well, since Norway is and has been working pretty well over the past decades, I don't really see either as a major issue... I'm not saying things cannot (and possibly even should) be improved - also in terms of road construction - but not even that will lead to thousands of kms of motorway.
But it hasn't, there has been under-investment in roads, railways, hospitals and education for decades, the only people who the system benefits are public servants and people who are on the benefit, i.e. those getting a free ride on the backs of the Norwegian taxpayer

All the govt appears to concern itself with is to stash away as much money as possible in the oil fund whilst neglecting the issues that need investing in today.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 03:42 PM   #1531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Here the road and railway authorities recommend the modest "moderniseringalternativet"
On most of the route (Stjørdal -Steinkjer), they will only go for 1+2 / 1+1. Traffic is in many places already above 12 000 AADT which is the 30 years limit for building four lanes in Norway. Perhaps even more strange is Trondheim-Stjørdal, where they only will have a narrow motorway, although the traffic is already approaching 20 000 AADT, which is the limit for a normal motorway. Expansion here from the current mostly two-lane road is delayed to phase two. i.e. some time after 2020, "because the stretch is already tolled". What is the point with the Norwegian highway standards when they never seems to be applied for new projects, at least not in our region?
I was in a good mood from seeing progress on E6 further south, and then you come along ruining my good mood with facts

This stretch should absolutely be 4 lanes all the way (although long sections would probably by fine with the "narrow 4-lane" standard). What kind of retards came up with this. Have they not learned anything from costly projects in the past where they had to reconstruct again a few years later because more capacity was needed?

If money is the problem I say the state should be blamed for taking a bigger part of the bill (or all of it).
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Old September 10th, 2011, 03:54 PM   #1532
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
You gotta be kidding, "possible even should"? Sounds like you are quite happy with the current situation, even on the road situation and development. The only reason Norway can be percieved to "work pretty well" is that massive oil investments can pay for an equal massive public sector. Still, there seems to be very little left for infrastructure. The ironic fact is that the current government did not win the popular vote in 2009, neither did they do so in 2005, i.e. they are only in power due to the election system.
Please... I don't intend to make this into either a political debate or a debate about the political system. I was only pointing out that, although not perfect, the system works reasonably well. Also, I pointed out that ours is a system of consensus, not one of violent conflict and dramatic change. Evolution, not revolution, that's the Norwegian way. Thus, it's highly unlikely that we will see radical changes no matter who's in power. I'm not saying that it's perfect, I'm not saying that I wouldn't like to see an increased funding of important infrastructure, but I am saying that believing that we will see a massive increase in construction over night, is quite naive.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 04:19 PM   #1533
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http://snubba.hin.no/samferdsel/utfordringer.pdf

illustrates my point quite well.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #1534
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The way you expressed yourself it seemed like you were content with everything in Norway, including the road infrastructure. Note sure where the violent conflict is coming in, or exactly what point Boge is illustrating for you, but I am pretty sure this is a pointless discussion.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grauthue View Post
I was in a good mood from seeing progress on E6 further south, and then you come along ruining my good mood with facts

This stretch should absolutely be 4 lanes all the way (although long sections would probably by fine with the "narrow 4-lane" standard). What kind of retards came up with this. Have they not learned anything from costly projects in the past where they had to reconstruct again a few years later because more capacity was needed?

If money is the problem I say the state should be blamed for taking a bigger part of the bill (or all of it).
Completly agree on all above.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 09:54 PM   #1535
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Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
The way you expressed yourself it seemed like you were content with everything in Norway, including the road infrastructure. Note sure where the violent conflict is coming in, or exactly what point Boge is illustrating for you, but I am pretty sure this is a pointless discussion......
No doubt, pointless...

I stand by what I've been saying for years, summed up a few days ago: "we are in urgent need of a proper roadway makeover".

That does not, however, prevent me from accepting political reality. No government (Labour, Conservative, Centrist, Centre-right or Centre-left) has done anything remotely like this the past 45 years (a point I've also made quite a few times, I just thought the Boge presentation was clear on the subject. If you didn't like it, fine...), and I cannot see where any serious and/or realistic change is to come from.

Finally, "violent" is mainly used rhetorically, as hyperbole. It is meant to underline the notion of Norway as a country where we tend to seek political consensus. Nonetheless, both real "violent conflict" and - particularly - "radical change" are more common in other Western countries.

Last edited by ElviS77; September 10th, 2011 at 09:59 PM.
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Old September 10th, 2011, 10:56 PM   #1536
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The problem in Norway, much as in the United Kingdom and Belgium, is that no real progress is ever made, causing any plan that goes beyond a dozen kilometers of new motorway being titled as a "pipe dream". Mentality needs to change. The Netherlands is a good example that things can be changed. We went from a complete stagnation to one of the biggest construction sites in Europe in just a few years.
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Old September 11th, 2011, 12:28 PM   #1537
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The problem in Norway, much as in the United Kingdom and Belgium, is that no real progress is ever made, causing any plan that goes beyond a dozen kilometers of new motorway being titled as a "pipe dream". Mentality needs to change. The Netherlands is a good example that things can be changed. We went from a complete stagnation to one of the biggest construction sites in Europe in just a few years.
No doubt that a change in mentality might get us a little bit further, but to get something done for real, that would need to be combined with a systemic change in which local government is stripped of much of their power. Promoting such ideas equals political suicide in rural Norway. Furthermore, local and national environmental and NIMBY groups are quite influential and, in addition, for a majority of the population, road construction isn't the issue.
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Old September 12th, 2011, 09:46 PM   #1538
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Things need to be done as business will start to leave Norway, my CEO today announded that he was considering moving all production out of Norway, that's 500 manufacturing jobs gone, reasons for this are many but high transport costs are right up there, along with high wages and an over valued NOK.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 02:32 AM   #1539
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ElviS77: Both KrF, Venstre, Høyre and FrP is in favour of using project financing. Which will make a lot easier to finance road projects in Norway.

In the main corridors,
Oslo area - Trøndelag
Oslo area - Møre og Romsdal
Oslo area - Sogn og Fjordane
Oslo area - Bergen area
Oslo area - Stavanger area
Oslo area - Southern Norway
Southern Norway - Western Norway
Western Norway - Trøndelag
Trøndelag - Northern Norway

the total need of investments is about 650 billion NOK to get a modern network of motorways and expressways.

The network in these corridors is about 5 200 km. Mainly it's my opinion that these stretches should be minimum expressway. However, I understand and agree that it's a waste of money to build expressways where the traffic barely reaches 1000 aadt on longer stretches. So high standard rural roads should be accepted on certain stretches. This counts especially for Finnmark.

These 5201 km of road consist of 2 800 km of motorway, 1 775 km of expressway and 626 km of high standard rural road.

To build and upgrade all these stretches would take 30 years. And will as I've said cost about 650 billion NOK.

A company named something like "Den Norske Stats hovedriksveger SF" should own and finance these roads. The bill should be split by the government and the users. And be financed over a 30 year period. This gives an annual cost of almost 22 billions. 11 billions on the government and 11 billions on the users. This company borrow money from banks and/or the government to finance the building. And then repay it using tolls and annual money from the government.

The government currently use 7,45 billions on investments on roads today. In addition 3,45 billions from tolls is available for Statens Vegvesen. So that's a total of 10,9 billion NOK annually. On top of this the counties use an unknown amount.

Building a needed national route network should not lead to an decrease in investments on other roads. So the total amount used by the government should in the future be 13-14 billions instead of 7,45. Which of 11 billions goes to the company I've mentioned.

Norway should start using GPS as tolls.
http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ir...cle4173095.ece

The total driven distance on roads in Norway was 42,6 billion km in 2010.
Of this I would say 3,1 billion would use the national route network. 1,7 billion of this is transport under 3,5 T. And 1,4 billion over 3,5 T. With a price tag of 2,5 kr per km for cars and 5 kr per km for trucks that would mean a total income of 11 billions a year.

A truck going Bergen - Trondheim would then pay 2 730 kr in tolls compared to 3 975 kr in tolls and ferries today. While a truck going Oslo - Trondheim would have to pay 2 320 kr in tolls compared to 40 kr today. However, reduced fuel costs and reduced maintenance costs on trucks would mean that the total budget would go in plus even on Oslo - Trondheim.

Alternatively they can just add 2,25 kr in taxes on fuel. A total of 5 billion litre of car fuel was sold in Norway in 2010. So 2,25 kr tax on fuel would lead to 11,2 billions in income. That way all foreigners would be forced to pay for the roads as well.

Neither of these numbers are unreasonable or unrealistic.
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Old September 16th, 2011, 10:28 AM   #1540
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ElviS77: Both KrF, Venstre, Høyre and FrP is in favour of using project financing. Which will make a lot easier to finance road projects in Norway.
I know. Nonetheless, that is no reason to believe that a new centre-right government will change things fundamentally. And 2800 kms of motorway by 2040 is, again, completely unrealistic. Even if things were to change somewhat. Not because it's impossible to do, but because there is no fundamental political agreement about doing it, ant there never will be.
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