daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 4th, 2011, 11:17 PM   #1661
54°26′S 3°24′E
Registered User
 
54°26′S 3°24′E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 811
Likes (Received): 155

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
I think you might have misunderstood my question. Yes, I know it photographs the front and back number plates, and yes, I know you should have lights on the backplats(I do). Let me ask it a slightly different way then.

Since speed cameras flash in order to read the plates of the car, how is it that the Bergen toll cameras are able to read the plates without a flash?
Speed cameras need a picture of the driver, whereas toll points only need a picture of the plates, which is much easier. Many speed cameras in tunnels are using infrared flash which you don't see, btw.

Needless to say, I agree fully with you regarding the Norwegian road standards, even if not all roads have that much traffic.

Regarding righ hand rule, I don't see the need to have signs everywhere, and hence this is a good rule, which also exist in most other countries I know / have driven in (quite a few, actually). However, there should clearly be a lot more roads having the right of way, i.e. with the diamond sign. The philosophy by the road authorities, I believe, is that people on the main road will drive more carefully if they don't have the right of way. From my experience, the local driving culture is varying dramatically around the country regarding main roads that do not formally have the right of way. In Trondheim, drivers more or less act as if they have the right of way when driving on the through / main road, which is good for traffic flow, but of course could be problematic the day an accident happens. In other parts of the country, they are driving more according to the book.

Regarding round-abouts, they are, according to the law, not different from any other road with the right of way. Hence, since you are both turning right when entering and exiting this "road", there is no rule that says that you should use the left turn signal as you enter if you plan to exit from the left arm of the roundabout. Personally, this is not something I expect, look for, or miss from other drivers either. However, what I do look for is the right-turn signal for cars that are about to exit the roundabout. This signal is required by law. Your assumptions (and hence surprises) are probably based on you coming from a country where signalling to the left in a round-about is common practice. Generally, a roundabouts in Norway are designed to slow down the traffic, and that is often the excuse for making them narrow. Still they are both safer and more efficient than traffic lights in most cases.

http://www.vegvesen.no/Trafikkinform...+rundkjoringer
__________________
Norway needs a new transport infrastructure network, let's start now!

Last edited by 54°26′S 3°24′E; December 4th, 2011 at 11:25 PM.
54°26′S 3°24′E no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 5th, 2011, 02:21 AM   #1662
katia72
Registered User
 
katia72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Oslo
Posts: 223
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by KiwiRob View Post
Yippee finally someone agrees with me on this forum, I don't know a non-Norwegian in Norway who likes it either, but try telling a local it's the most daft and possibly dangerous road rule ever.

I agree with you too ..... Here in Oslo in many places (especially on the west) it is poorly signposted. What I miss in Norway is the "green light" to the right .... this could reduced queues in many places.
katia72 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2011, 08:12 AM   #1663
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,796
Likes (Received): 614

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Regarding round-abouts, they are, according to the law, not different from any other road with the right of way. Hence, since you are both turning right when entering and exiting this "road", there is no rule that says that you should use the left turn signal as you enter if you plan to exit from the left arm of the roundabout. Personally, this is not something I expect, look for, or miss from other drivers either. However, what I do look for is the right-turn signal for cars that are about to exit the roundabout. This signal is required by law.
It is interesting to see how the three Scandinavian countries Norway, Sweden and Finland have interpreted differently their traffic laws regarding to the signals in the roundabouts.

The content of the laws are very similar. None of them gives explicit hints on signaling. That is why the rules for 'ordinary' intersections are being applied to the roundabouts.

The different behaviour can be seen when making a left turn at a roundabout: The Finns do not give any signal before the exit where they give a right signal. The Norwegians seem to give a left signal when driving in the roundabout and finally a right signal. The Swedish way to drive at a roundabout is very liberal and usually they do not give any signal.
MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2011, 12:39 PM   #1664
JeremyCastle
Registered User
 
JeremyCastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 169
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by 54°26′S 3°24′E View Post
Speed cameras need a picture of the driver, whereas toll points only need a picture of the plates, which is much easier. Many speed cameras in tunnels are using infrared flash which you don't see, btw.
Forgive my ignorance, but as I've never gotten a speeding ticket from a speed camera, I assume that the cameras(at least in the UK) take a photo of the rear plates, not the driver. Wouldn't the camera have to move in order to get a photo of both the driver and number plate? Otherwise, how are people able to(again, at least in the Uk) convince their friends and relative to sometimes take the driving penalty points for them?

Again, I'm not sure how speed cameras work in Norway, but in the UK, I think speed cameras flash twice, once to take a normal photo of the number plate, another one in infra red to get a clear photo of the plate. If the infrared gets though any obstruction on the plate, then what is the purpose of the regular photo? Is it indeed to get a photo of the driver? If so, then that feeds into my first question, doesn't the camera have to move to get the photo of the driver?
JeremyCastle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #1665
MattiG
Registered User
 
MattiG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Espoo FI
Posts: 1,796
Likes (Received): 614

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
Again, I'm not sure how speed cameras work in Norway, but in the UK, I think speed cameras flash twice, once to take a normal photo of the number plate, another one in infra red to get a clear photo of the plate. If the infrared gets though any obstruction on the plate, then what is the purpose of the regular photo? Is it indeed to get a photo of the driver? If so, then that feeds into my first question, doesn't the camera have to move to get the photo of the driver?
It depends on the local legislation. If the ticket is to be sent to the driver instead of the owner, then a frontal photo is needed, of course. It is not any problem to get a photo showing the driver and the plate by one shot.

MattiG no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2011, 07:48 PM   #1666
ElviS77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 564
Likes (Received): 54

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
The reason why signalling left is helpful is this: I'm at a roundabout, and I want to to go straight. I slow down, and I see a car coming from the other side, and they look as if they are going to proceed straight. So, I start to go. As I begin to go, the other car ends up turning left rather than straight, and so, I hit the brakes to avoid actually continuing into the roundabout.

Now, if they had signalled, I would know what they were going to do, and as a result, I never would have attempted to enter the roundabout. As a result, I wouldn't have had to hit the breaks, and the chain reaction of seven cars behind more all hitting their breaks as well would never had occurred. To put it another way, if everyone in Norway signalled left when they saw a car coming from the other side in a roundabout not signalling, they could proceed into the roundabout because they know the other car is going straight.

Because 90% of Norwegians, don't bother to signal left, plus with the roundabouts that are simply to small, you end up with a nation of "brake tappers". That is, everyone inching their way into a roundabout, because everyone is unsure what the cars coming from the other side are going to do. I think this might be a major reason why roundabout traffic in the UK is so much smoother, people actually signal left(at least they are supposed to).
I don't disagree in practice, but I will continue to insist that if people could just drive properly, this wouldn't be an isssue. Driving properly before and in a roundabout, on the other hand, is an issue... Still, I believe the lack of right signalling when exiting is a far bigger issue that disrupts traffic flow considerably more. Norwegians are fairly good drivers, as long as they stay clear of motorways and roundabouts...
ElviS77 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2011, 08:34 PM   #1667
Galro
Humanity through Urbanity
 
Galro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,340
Likes (Received): 10026

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
The reason why signalling left is helpful is this: I'm at a roundabout, and I want to to go straight. I slow down, and I see a car coming from the other side, and they look as if they are going to proceed straight. So, I start to go. As I begin to go, the other car ends up turning left rather than straight, and so, I hit the brakes to avoid actually continuing into the roundabout.

Now, if they had signalled, I would know what they were going to do, and as a result, I never would have attempted to enter the roundabout. As a result, I wouldn't have had to hit the breaks, and the chain reaction of seven cars behind more all hitting their breaks as well would never had occurred. To put it another way, if everyone in Norway signalled left when they saw a car coming from the other side in a roundabout not signalling, they could proceed into the roundabout because they know the other car is going straight.
.
Eh. You should be able to see that based on the placement on the road/which lane he is using if there are any. The left part of the road/lane is for going left, the right part of the road/lane is for going straight or right (and then you have to signal to the right).

You shouldn't signal to the left as you are going something fundamentally wrong if you plan to turn left into the roundabout. If you plan to continue driving to the left from the roundabout then you first have to turn right into the actual roundabout. Then just proceed on the the roundabout like it is a normal road until you reach the access road you want, where you have to take another right turn to leave the roundabout again. Could you identify at which point you are leaving the road with a left turn which warrant signaling to the left?
Galro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 11:18 AM   #1668
JeremyCastle
Registered User
 
JeremyCastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 169
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Galro View Post
Eh. You should be able to see that based on the placement on the road/which lane he is using if there are any. The left part of the road/lane is for going left, the right part of the road/lane is for going straight or right (and then you have to signal to the right).

Could you identify at which point you are leaving the road with a left turn which warrant signaling to the left?
Since most roundabouts in Norway are single lane, it's not that easy sometimes to know the road placement of the car.

If you are going left or going completely around the roundabout, you signal right as soon as you pass the exit before the one you want to take.

Last edited by JeremyCastle; December 6th, 2011 at 12:10 PM. Reason: single, not signal!
JeremyCastle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 11:32 AM   #1669
JeremyCastle
Registered User
 
JeremyCastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 169
Likes (Received): 2

So, I woke up this morning and there was a fair amount of snow on the ground. And as I drove my wife to work, I notice that the roads we took, except for one small section all still had a fair amount of snow and ice on them. The snow plows had come, but was surprised out how much remained on the busy 9 in the morning roads. Also, it has been snowing for about 3 days now, and haven't noticed any salt or grit anywhere on the roads.

So I began to ask myself: "Do Norwegians not like to to salt and plow their roads either???"

I know we all use snow tires, but why is so much ice left on the roads?

Last edited by JeremyCastle; December 6th, 2011 at 02:02 PM. Reason: added a "but"
JeremyCastle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 01:56 PM   #1670
Kjello0
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Trondheim
Posts: 394
Likes (Received): 70

Only the most important roads with the most traffic are salted. Salt has been criticized by many the recent years. When it's not icy, but just a layer of snow, salting the road makes the road condition worse. In addition it ruins the cars and the environment around the roads. Under half of the salt used stays in the road, and the rest ends up in the ditch. If they've just plow the road decently and regularly, most roads would be fine.
Kjello0 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 02:24 PM   #1671
JeremyCastle
Registered User
 
JeremyCastle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 169
Likes (Received): 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjello0 View Post
Only the most important roads with the most traffic are salted. Salt has been criticized by many the recent years. When it's not icy, but just a layer of snow, salting the road makes the road condition worse. In addition it ruins the cars and the environment around the roads. Under half of the salt used stays in the road, and the rest ends up in the ditch. If they've just plow the road decently and regularly, most roads would be fine.
But salt doesn't have to be used. Why don't they consider alternatives to salt? Where I'm originally from, California, sand and tiny special rocks are used. Have alternatives been considered?

I do agree with you though, that in the UK, where hardly anyone has winter tires, they use WAY TOO much salt, hence the problem with rust on cars. I don't think rust is as a big of a problem here. But then again, can't drivers(here in Norway and other places), just periodically wash the underside of their cars to get rid of the salt?
JeremyCastle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 02:32 PM   #1672
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

Sand clogs the drainage systems.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 04:05 PM   #1673
ElviS77
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 564
Likes (Received): 54

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
But salt doesn't have to be used. Why don't they consider alternatives to salt? Where I'm originally from, California, sand and tiny special rocks are used. Have alternatives been considered?

I do agree with you though, that in the UK, where hardly anyone has winter tires, they use WAY TOO much salt, hence the problem with rust on cars. I don't think rust is as a big of a problem here. But then again, can't drivers(here in Norway and other places), just periodically wash the underside of their cars to get rid of the salt?
They do consider - and use - alternatives, particularly in places where the temperature drops to a point where salt is at best ineffectual, at worst outright dangerous. But as KjellO said, motorways and expressways aside, we're probably better off plowing properly. "White" winter roads aren't a problem for drivers with winter experience and proper winter tyres, it might even be helpful: drivers tend to treat such conditions with more care than they do when the winter roads are "black".

Rust is a serious issue, as main roads (for instance the E6/E18 around Oslo) are salted heavily throughout the winter. And sure, we do wash the cars' undersides when possible. When it remains considerably below freezing for months, though, washing your car is not straightforward to begin with...
ElviS77 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 04:24 PM   #1674
Galro
Humanity through Urbanity
 
Galro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,340
Likes (Received): 10026

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
Since most roundabouts in Norway are single lane, it's not that easy sometimes to know the road placement of the car.
Then I suggest you should do something to get more familiar with your own car. It should be no problem knowing the placement of your own car on the road.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeremyCastle View Post
If you are going left or going completely around the roundabout, you signal right as soon as you pass the exit before the one you want to take.
Yes, but you signal to the right as you will be leaving the roundabout to the right. Not to the left. That's only confusing and counter the otherwise easy to read layouts of roundabout.
Galro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 04:53 PM   #1675
Ingenioren
Registered User
 
Ingenioren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Oslo
Posts: 5,605
Likes (Received): 584

How can it be confusing... "That guy is signalling left... I wonder where he is going" (!!??)
__________________
I want to see some construction!
Ingenioren no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 06:23 PM   #1676
Galro
Humanity through Urbanity
 
Galro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 12,340
Likes (Received): 10026

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingenioren View Post
How can it be confusing... "That guy is signalling left... I wonder where he is going" (!!??)
Because
a: It's distracting. Blinking lights are. You shouldn't use it more than necessarily. People only expect other drivers to signal to the right on roundabout.

b: People who are already in the roundabout could think the guy who are signaling to left have misunderstood the concept with roundabouts, and is about to enter it to the left driving against the traffic flow. It's not too uncommon with people who do this at freeways, roundabouts or in one way streets.

c: There way be more than one exists located to the left of where you are entering the roundabout, and it can therefore be hard to understand which one of them you mean. It's therefore a bad habit. If you instead are correctly signaling to the right when you are about to exist the roundabout then people will now that you will leave at first available exist.
Galro no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 09:34 PM   #1677
Victorinus
GOES - NL
 
Victorinus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Goes - NL
Posts: 527
Likes (Received): 343

[IMG]http://t2.************/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQFowGrNnoNPo7X_pQV1bfNCMxqn1mWyYeuRafeKD9HrqwMbLx_Jg[/IMG]

When you're taking the blue line, you should sign to the left. Until exiting, than you sign right.
When you're taking the yellow line, you should sign to the right.

This is how we have to dot it in The Netherlands.

Last edited by Victorinus; December 6th, 2011 at 11:47 PM.
Victorinus no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 09:42 PM   #1678
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,573
Likes (Received): 19366

Not really. Some driving schools say you have to turn your left signal on if you're taking the roundabout three quarters but this is not set in the highway code.

It's also nonsense since you NEVER make a left turn on a roundabout except if you're driving it the wrong way.
ChrisZwolle está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 10:11 PM   #1679
cinxxx
I ♥ Timişoara
 
cinxxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: München
Posts: 22,234
Likes (Received): 18298

It's not nonsense, since, if I come from another intersecting point, I can see if the car in the roundabout will continue inside (doing left) so I will wait for him to pass, or will exit (doing right) and then I can enter it.
cinxxx no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 6th, 2011, 10:36 PM   #1680
GROBIN
Conducteur infatigable
 
GROBIN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Francilien délocalisé, issu de la diversité
Posts: 712
Likes (Received): 1607

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It's also nonsense since you NEVER make a left turn on a roundabout except if you're driving it the wrong way.
What do you mean ???
__________________
Everyone smiles in the same language.
Self-called tolerant people tend to be tolerant only with people with similar opinions & call others "retards".


Been Drove Rode my bike Lived:
A AND AUS B BIH BY CZ D E EST ET F FIN GB H HR I IL L LT LV MAL MC PL RI SGP SK SLO T TN USA UA YV

"Richtgeschwindigkeit" should be the default system in all EU motorways & expressways & lane indiscipline should be harshly fought! Down with radars on motorways!
GROBIN no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
norway

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 11:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium