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Old April 2nd, 2013, 09:58 PM   #21
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There was a discussion in a Chinese HSR thread that was off-topic there, but should be right on topic here, beginning with:
Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
I absolutely agree, Ürümqi-Almaty would be relatively "low-hanging fruit", with nice extension possibilities, it makes a lot more sense to do this one (first) than Ürümqi-Astana. But if I were to make Ürümqi-Astana I wouldn't let the line go through Almaty

I was curious and made a rough map of Lanzhou-Ürümqi, and because of this discussion I added the Y-branches and extended them to Moscow and Tehran. That's wild fantasy of course, but it visualises what I mean. (It's not made with great attention to details, if you want to correct it, feel free.)

Also the route Lanzhou-Ürümqi seems spectacular, and should be attractive just for the tourism of it (or train one way and plane the other to save time), the parts not in a tunnel anyway.
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 10:01 PM   #22
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Some more from that thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by scientist12 View Post
I have been wanting to travel this route for a while now so it's all interesting. I believe Azerbaijan is planning a high speed route through to Turkey so I might take that route, although for trade the Caspian sea would ruin that route, but I'd take a boat across. Tehran would be my other preferred route but not under the current political situation.
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Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
I think I made the map open for anyone to edit. Google maps can sometimes be very frustrating to edit, but at least it is straightforward. Click "EDIT" and then drag the lines where you want them, or in this case add extra line(s) with the line tool (the zig-zag line button).

(I used an extra trick to make great lines for Moscow, for the Earth's curvature. It looks curved on the map, but what would be a straight line on the map would actually be longer in reality.)

Since 75% of my drawing time is doing "uh, where is this town?" lookups, I am sure someone who knows the area would do it better and quicker.
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Originally Posted by Restless View Post
As you said Novosibirsk should be doing well, except for the fact that Russia is wary of Chinese trade and investment, and Western Russia is too far away.
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Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
In any case this seems moot. Kazakhstan is building a new line between Astana and Almaty, with the goal of being finished by the time Astana holds EXPO2017. It will use Russian gauge (1520mm), single track, with rated speed of 250 km/h. A French company, Systra, will oversee it. The travel time is supposed to be reduced from 12 hours to 5 hours.

Well, back to China domestic lines.

Kazakhstan plans 1 000 km high speed line
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 10:03 PM   #23
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Yet some more:
Quote:
Originally Posted by coth View Post
Early or later Russia will connect Moscow with Yekaterinburg and Chelyabinsk. So then there will be "just" 2,5 thous km to connect Chelyabinsk with Urumqi via Troitsk, Kostanay, Astana and Karaganda. Or via Tyumen, Omsk, Pavlodar, Semey and Ust'-Kamenogorsk.
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Originally Posted by Stainless View Post
^ Why only single track? Or do they mean one track each way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
1435 mm Khorgos-Almaty HSR it would not be moot. It would connect Almaty, itself a major city, to China, and provide a convenient connection/break of gauge at Almaty station.
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Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
I cannot justify it economically but I like the idea of a Trans-Eurasian express. I have never taken the Transsibirian railway, but if there were a Eurasian HSR link I would take it (though frankly most times I would take a plane). For that reason I am a little peeved with the Russians for staying with the broad gauge, but the time changing trains would be a small part of the journey, so it may not be that big a deal.



Single track is cheaper, and for some areas with long distances and little traffic it makes sense. This would be the second single track HSR after the Bothnia line in Sweden, and this one will be five times as long. Crossing trains may have to wait at a passing loop like a station, which can make high-speed travel far less speedy.



Yes, that would be preferable to changing trains on the border. A line like that could in principle continue, even all the way to Iran (using standard gauge) as need be, as per the map above.

It is all a bit off-topic, but international travel could be part of the motivation for HSR to places like Urumqi or Kunming.
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 10:09 PM   #24
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Almost done...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
The Russian broad gauge network is huge and it WORKS. No point in changing it - they are better off developing high speed trains of wide gauge.

Spaniards have built Talgo 250/Renfe class 130 trains - which run at 220 km/h on 1668 mm and 250 km/h on 1435 mm. They have already built 1520 mm Talgo 130, and it is running on Tashkent-Samarkand high speed railway.

So how about buying some variable gauge Talgo 250 trains which could travel Urumqi-Almaty on 1435 mm and after changing gauge at a gauge changer somewhere in Almaty station - rather faster than bogie exchange - continue some to Astana and then Moscow, some to Tashkent, Samarkand and then Ashabad?
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Originally Posted by Restless View Post
The Russian Gauge network is large, but it only accounts for about 5% of global passenger-km. So basically that means any Russian passenger train has to be custom designed/modified and then built.

In comparison Standard Gauge is used in the USA, Europe and in China, and accounts for the vast majority of passenger-km and railway R&D in the world.
So everything standard gauge really is cheaper, faster and better.

I agree that Russia should be licensing the Talgo technology if they really want to get into high-speed trains. But given how sparsely populated Russia is and how few HSR lines have enough people to justify construction, it's probably better just to do a one-off purchase because they'll really struggle to sustain the design. It takes years of learning and continuous refinement to get a train design right.
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Right there you know that the Chinese dream will not happen. HSR? Yes. China sourced? Could be. But one continuous continguous line? No. K are going with the Russian gauge.

China is standard gauge, 1535mm.
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
A standard design on broad gauge axles doesn't involve much in the way of extra development or tooling costs.



The standard gauge doesn't mean a unified rolling stock market. The US has the same gauge as Europe and China, however an off-the-shelf European train can't run in the US. In fact, taking an European train set and modifying it for the Russian network is trivial compared to modifying it for the US.

As to passenger volumes: Don't discount Japan (narrow gauge) and India (broad gauge).
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Not really.

Variable gauge technology is needed for direct trains across breaks of gauge. It does mean a persistent cost in terms of weight and braking capacity. Spain uses fixed gauge trainsets alongside variable gauge ones, because fixed gauge trains are cheaper where the route stays on single gauge.

Likewise, Russia should be developing high speed trains on wide gauge, for Moscow-St. Petersburg, St. Petersburg-Helsinki, Helsinki-Lahti.... Variable gauge is proper for the direct trains across break of gauge, like Oulu-Boden, Tallinn-Warszawa, Moscow-Berlin, Baku-Tbilisi-Ankara, Ashabad-Teheran, Astana-Urumqi, Ulan-Bator-Beijing, Vladivostok-Changchun...

On the Kunming end: 1000 mm is not very well suited for high speed due to stability problems. Queensland does operate 160 km/h on 1067 mm, but this is hard. Therefore Burma, whose mainlines are 1000 mm, is better off accepting the high speed lines from Kunming at 1435 mm, and connecting to local train network.

But Bangladesh has some 1676 mm, and India is standardizing on 1676 mm and regauging 1000 mm lines. Therefore, China can buy Talgo trainsets designed for 1435/1676 mm (besides the sets of 1435/1520 mm on northern border) and send them across Hump... Where should the crossing to 1676 mm width be? Calcutta? Dhacca? Chittagong?
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Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
Or that the dream of long-distance train is just a beautiful dream, whether outside China or inside China. HSR can compete with air for being more comfortable, and being more point to point (though not always in China where the station can be as inconveniently located as the airport; this will improve, but so will the airport), the security is less annoying and less quick. This gives an advantage for short-distance trips (where planes are at a disadvantage anyway, take-off and landing is very energy intensive and uncomfortable for passengers, something cruising at high altitude is not).

For trains to compete long-distance with planes (speed 900 km/h), they would probably have to go at speeds of 600 km/h or more, in which case the drag would be absolutely atrocious. That could possibly be mollified with long trains (16 cars, 32 cars or something), but that would affect frequency. More importantly, infrastructure made today couldn't be upgraded to such a speed, and would have to be rebuilt, leaving a very expensive network for local transport (where it can easily beat cars and busses for trunk lines).

To actually be an improvement, and thus justifying the cost, it would need to exceed. That means 1000+ km/h trains in evacuated tubes or similar. Never mind that nothing such exists, the cost of building such a thing when it were to exist would be absolutely humongous, even on a comparably short route, say Beijing-Shanghai. Even then air transport could easily compete if origin and destination were not on the line.

In a way we are back 50 years ago in the 1960s when the beautiful dream was the supersonic flight. Concorde aside, it never happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Subsonic flights could and did outcompete Concorde on comfort and costs - despite flying at less than half the speed.

So could high speed trains likewise outcompete planes?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
Changing axles is a major undertaking because it means all the design calculations have to be redone and components modified, and new tooling is actually pretty expensive.

And we're talking about HSR here, where there is effectively a unified market for rolling stock.
Note that because China is in the process of building out more high-speed rail than the rest of the world has in the past 50years.

To do so, train designs from Alstom, Kawasaki, Siemens and Bombardier have already been localised for Chinese standards - which are very very similar to Euro-HSR standards.

And a quick back of the envelope calculation ends up with China and Europe alone, accounting for almost half of all passenger-km in the world (for both HSR and non-HSR). So standard gauge is where most of the R&D money is going, and where most of the production capacity is.

Plus note that HSR in Japan is standard gauge and the future Indian HSR network may be standard gauge as well.
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 10:12 PM   #25
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...aaand finally:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
I should have clarified somewhat more. I suggested Talgo for Russia because can it can handle variable gauges AND it also uses tilting technology for HS running on existing networks, which is a very useful feature in Russia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
I think they are in China. Lots of latent demand that appears when a CRH line opens up between major cities. Everything from comfort, time saving getting to/from the station, easier security procedures that save time, event oriented travel by families, and the fact that more than a few people do not like to fly and prefer to stay on the ground.

You do not need to exceed absolute speed to have an advantage. Many people place a value on time, but also intangibles will modify that such that more time may not 'cost more' to a given person.

I, for one, want to take a Principal Class seat to Guangzhou just because. I can fly for the same or less, in much less time. But sleeping whilst laying down in my seat on the way there? I cannot pass that up!
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Old April 2nd, 2013, 11:19 PM   #26
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Ofcourse the demand is latent in China. We are talking about an economy that may still quadrouple the comming 20-25 years, and with that the transport needs will at least triple. The market is that huge, and the layout of China is perfect for hsr. But the same demand would be there for planes too, if the prizes had been more out for auction in a more free economy with competition and less airport tax.

Then again, I don't see the point in this trans eurasian network outside the majr population centers of europe, china and india. Sure a few tracks down to Indochina and perhaps connecting China with India. But all the way to Europe doesn't make sense. It would still take over 33 hours to ride from Shanghai to Berlin and that is too long when a flight takes you only 11 hours.

To me it makes more sense to spend money on airport trains going straight to the railway stations in every major city. That way time is more well spent, and you can connect with air and train more efficiently.

Imagine going from an Airbus A380 on an airport train in Beijing after arriving from Frankfurt only to take a hsr up to Shenyang. That is how I see the future of trans eurasian travel. Swift and efficient without obstacles like trainchanges in Russia or Kazakhstan, or Iran for that matter.

Edit: Oh, but we are already there now
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Old April 3rd, 2013, 12:28 AM   #27
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Except that for the most part airports and HSR stations are not integrated in China, and it isn't the rule in Europe either.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 08:04 AM   #28
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Not done yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Western European designs are being exported to Russian gauge countries, so it does not appear to impose a big barrier.


All rolling stock manufacturers will happily build trains to any track and loading gauge you specify. The Chinese HST's are actually quite different from European ones. They have wider car bodies for example.


They'll build it to standard gauge. Indian standard gauge. 1676mm. There is no case to be made for going for a different gauge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
If the high-speed rail is an upgrade of existing low-speed rail, of course you wouldn't change gauge. If on the other hand you build new HSR track not intended to integrate with the existing system you would likely be better off using standard gauge. This is what Spain did with their AVE high-speed network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes, and Spain is probably at a serious disadvantage compared to France whose TGV is naturally integrated with low-speed rail. Spain would have been better off sticking to their gauge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Restless View Post
I'm only aware of 2 designs with a handful of trains to be delivered with Russian Gauge.

Contrast that with the situation in China where 6+ HSR designs initially trialed on the tracks.
Over 800 HSR trains comprising almost 10000cars have now been mass-produced in China.
===

You're right that any manufacturer will build to a different gauge and loading.

But the Russian gauge market is just too small to support lots of manufacturers competing with lower prices and their best products.

I say that there is effectively a single market for HSR trains in Europe and China because the standards are very similar.

Trains in the EU are designed to a common interoperability standard, which means they have to work in over 20 different countries on standard gauge, each with their own ways of working, loading gauge, signalling etc. So the Chinese situation is pretty much covered already.

So when China started from scratch 6 years ago, they could apply the almost the same standards and operating manuals from Europe. Then you have to look at all the technology crossover and duplicate production facilities between the train manufacturers in Europe and China.

===

Where are you getting your information on Indian gauge HSR from??

Kerala plans high speed rail network

The high-speed corridor would have two parallel tracks in the standard gauge system as is the case with Delhi Metro Rail."

http://www.business-standard.com/art...1600096_1.html

Mumbai-Ahmedabad High Speed Railway Corridor
Japan International Consultants for Transportation Co., Ltd. (JIC)


We propose standard gauge for HSR in India (even though
conventional line has broad gauge), as following reasons:
 Main stream of world HSR is standard gauge
 Capacity of the conventional line would be limited for HSR
 Securing safety in different speeds of railway operations

http://www.jterc.or.jp/english/kokus...esentation.pdf
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Old April 4th, 2013, 10:04 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bannor View Post
Then again, I don't see the point in this trans eurasian network outside the majr population centers of europe, china and india. Sure a few tracks down to Indochina and perhaps connecting China with India. But all the way to Europe doesn't make sense. It would still take over 33 hours to ride from Shanghai to Berlin and that is too long when a flight takes you only 11 hours.
Russia I agree with, too large distances, too few people (in most cases). So, what high-speed rail projects are there in Asia (outside East Asia - China, Japan, Korea...)? The above commissioned Almaty-Astana, Tashkent-Samarkand (only a small segment of which is actually high-speed by standard definition, and only running once a day (!)). Others?
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Old April 4th, 2013, 10:18 AM   #30
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Quote:
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So, what high-speed rail projects are there in Asia (outside East Asia - China, Japan, Korea...)? The above commissioned Almaty-Astana, Tashkent-Samarkand (only a small segment of which is actually high-speed by standard definition, and only running once a day (!)). Others?
Does Turkey have any high-speed rail projects in Europe, or are they all in Asia?
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Old April 4th, 2013, 10:48 AM   #31
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This Wikipedia map is supposed to be maintained by SSC-ers and up to date:

(skipping the discussion of where Europe ends for a more pragmatic "if it is within the map and high-speed, it will be drawn).

Also the Kunming-Singapore route, in Thailand and Malaysia, Thailand closest to opening.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 10:55 AM   #32
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And for completion, here is the map for East Asia:

But for West Asia, South Asia, North Asia, South-East Asia there isn't anything yet.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #33
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And for completion, here is the map for East Asia:
Which is obviously wrong in many ways in China.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 11:39 AM   #34
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Is it? I didn't notice. Not sure who's maintaining that one. The speed should be higher on some distances, but with the current slowdown it seems about right. The Dalian-Harbin line should jump up to 300 km/h soon though.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 11:48 AM   #35
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You are right, it does need some updating. Also from Wikipedia here are some proposals/visions for Indian HSR:
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Old April 4th, 2013, 12:07 PM   #36
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The Haramain line between Mecca and Medina is already under construction, planned opening next year. Design speed 360 km/h.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 04:02 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by :jax: View Post
And for completion, here is the map for East Asia:

But for West Asia, South Asia, North Asia, South-East Asia there isn't anything yet.
It's a SVG, is very easy to edit and update it. Inkscape for example is a free tool to edit this and is very easy to use.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 04:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
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And for completion, here is the map for East Asia:

But for West Asia, South Asia, North Asia, South-East Asia there isn't anything yet.
You forgot the Hokuriku Shinkansen, and the Chuo Shinkansen.
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Old April 4th, 2013, 06:08 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
It's a SVG, is very easy to edit and update it. Inkscape for example is a free tool to edit this and is very easy to use.
I just made a thread on best ways for creating/editing/collaborating on maps.
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Old April 5th, 2013, 06:33 AM   #40
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Quote:
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And for completion, here is the map for East Asia:

But for West Asia, South Asia, North Asia, South-East Asia there isn't anything yet.
There are many mistakes on this map, especially in Southern China. For a starter, Guilin is not such a big railway hub. Huaihua, wrong directions of railway lines, etc., etc.
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