daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 18th, 2010, 12:21 AM   #281
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

You must take into account that Italians love their cars to a greater extent than North-Europeans. Couldn't be different in the land of Ferrari, Lamborghini and Alfa Romeo! Moreover, we have a better highway system than our "Svizzeri" friends.

Keeping the discussion to trains only, I doubt non-60-minutes-interval timetables are the reason for lower ridership. There is no rational reason for which a 60 min interval would be prefferable to, say, a 55 min interval, a 70 min or a 92 min interval. Lack or reliability in France and Italy is a far more determinant issue of diminishing ridership on "lesser" lines, and its causes are old rolling stock, inadequate maitenance, crap singnaling etc.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 18th, 2010, 07:01 AM   #282
Crownsteler
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 851
Likes (Received): 474

While I agree that a reliability and frequency are more important, saying that there is not rational for a 60-minutes-interval timetable is well, I grant you, for the operating company there is no rational, but for travellers there is, and thus for operating companies there is. Een hour is probally the most important time interval we use, our conception of time is based on it. 36 minutes, 16 minutes, 49 minutes, 54 minutes, 11 minutes, all are meaningless to most people, and should be avoided, especially when people will have to calculate with them, instead use 5, 10, 15, 30 and 60 minutes intervals, they are much more intuative.

Now I know my train leaves at :26 and :56, every hour, every day. Should I be delayed, 30 minutes, I know my train leaves at :26 and :56. Should I be delayed by, say, 2 hours, I know my train leaves at :26 and :56. Should I instead want to delay my journey by 6 hours, I know my train leaves at :26 and :56. Should I want to travel tomorrow at 14:00, I know my train leaves at :26 and :56. If I want to travel next week at 16:00, I know my train leaves at :26 and :56.

Instead imagine such a system with 23 minutes interval, so my train leaves at :26, then, if I'm delayed, my train leaves at :49, fair enough. Now, I'm 2 hours delayed, so now when does my train leave?

:41 if I'm correct.

Now, I want to delay my journey by 6 hours, when does my train leave? What is I want tomorrow at 14:00, or in a week at 16:00?

Can you still not see merit in such a system?
Crownsteler no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 08:03 AM   #283
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
trains*km/inhabitant: 17 CH, 4,7 IT, 6,6 FR
passengers*km: 15 CH, 46 IT, 82 FR
What do this figures mean? I'm a bit confused by "passengers*km".

In Switzerland the number of train trips taken yearly is 48 per inhabitant. Half of the population has a "half fare" card, which means that they take public transit regularly.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 08:08 AM   #284
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crownsteler View Post
While I agree that a reliability and frequency are more important, saying that there is not rational for a 60-minutes-interval timetable is well, I grant you, for the operating company there is no rational, but for travellers there is, and thus for operating companies there is.
The biggest advantage to the operating companies, is that if all operating companies use the same time interval coordinating services becomes easy. A bus company feeding a railway line can start planning it's services without even knowing what the train timetable will be next year. It just asumes that trains arrive at the station at xx:00 and xx:30, and plans accordingly. Once the railway has announced it's schedules, it can just move the whole timetable by a fixed amount of minutes. Say the railway announces that trains will leave at 00:25 and 00:55 you just add 25 minutes to all the times you allready worked out...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 10:25 AM   #285
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
What do this figures mean? I'm a bit confused by "passengers*km".

In Switzerland the number of train trips taken yearly is 48 per inhabitant. Half of the population has a "half fare" card, which means that they take public transit regularly.
passengers X km = sum of distance travelled by all passagenrs in a given period of time (year, in the case). Because not every journey requires a specific tickets (like monthly passes for which you don't know how many exact trips each holder takes), there is some variability in these estimations.

km services / inhabitant = distance travelled by all revenue trains / population.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 10:31 AM   #286
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The biggest advantage to the operating companies, is that if all operating companies use the same time interval coordinating services becomes easy. A bus company feeding a railway line can start planning it's services without even knowing what the train timetable will be next year. It just asumes that trains arrive at the station at xx:00 and xx:30, and plans accordingly. Once the railway has announced it's schedules, it can just move the whole timetable by a fixed amount of minutes. Say the railway announces that trains will leave at 00:25 and 00:55 you just add 25 minutes to all the times you allready worked out...
K., you are assuming that is it in the interest of every company to coordinate schedules in a national basis. It might be true for Switzerland, but not in Italy, for instance. In some regions where railways are kind old and do not allow for medium speeds, independent private bus companies, operating without any contract - just an authorization provided they have safe buses, trained drivers etc. -, have achieved great sucess in undermining regional train services around specific times.

One of the most used tactis is, exaclty, to schedule arrivals of buses in small cities served by small stations 10/15 minutes after trains departures, so passengers coming from cities without train stations are "obliged" to use buses to continue the journey, beucase they can connect with the train (in such lines intervals greater than 2 hours are common). The government will contract buses to operate "synchronized" schedules with the trains, but then private bus companies underprice government services and their low ridership do not provide incentives for their expansion to more than a couple daily services to the nearest stations, stopping everywhere in the way.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 11:16 AM   #287
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

A timetable based on 60 minutes intervals is of a great help also for railway companies. The timetable is created for a single hour, and this pattern is repeated all the day. If the timetable work for 1 h, it works forever, instead irregular timetables as you suggest have to be planned for the whole day or week. And makes conncetions with trains or buses more difficult because without a regular pattern each connection has to be planned manually. In a symmetric timetable every 30 or 60 minutes you have connections between all trains. Last year Trenitalia destroyed its symmetric timetable centered on Milano Centrale, breaking a lot of connections (now partly restablished): I remember well an intercity train arriving at 9.10 from Bologna, without connection with the 9.10 train to Zürich. There were the same number of trains as the year before, but it was impossible to make some journeys.

Lack or reliability exists also because there is no a regular timetable, and every train has a different reason of delay. In a symmetric timetable the reasons for delays are repeated throught the day. If you solve the conflict for one hour, then you solved it forever.

Trains in Italy are little used because:
1) they are often late (consequence of a badly planend timetable)
2) they are often dirty or broken (lack of maintenance)
3) big holes in the timetable (up to 3 hours without trains even on important lines like Milano-Bologna in IC services)
4) random timetables with random connections (or, more often, without conenctions)
5) expensive fares except on regional trains (that are almost useless for long trips)
6) difficulty to buy tickets (in the Milan S-Bahn/RER tunnel there are no tickets offices nor ticket vending machines...can you imagine Châtelet in Paris or Friedrichstrasse in Berlin without any possibility to buy tickets?)
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 11:23 AM   #288
LUCAFUSAR
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 1,698
Likes (Received): 231

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
A timetable based on 60 minutes intervals is of a great help also for railway companies. The timetable is created for a single hour, and this pattern is repeated all the day. If the timetable work for 1 h, it works forever, instead irregular timetables as you suggest have to be planned for the whole day or week. And makes conncetions with trains or buses more difficult because without a regular pattern each connection has to be planned manually. In a symmetric timetable every 30 or 60 minutes you have connections between all trains. Last year Trenitalia destroyed its symmetric timetable centered on Milano Centrale, breaking a lot of connections (now partly restablished): I remember well an intercity train arriving at 9.10 from Bologna, without connection with the 9.10 train to Zürich. There were the same number of trains as the year before, but it was impossible to make some journeys.

Lack or reliability exists also because there is no a regular timetable, and every train has a different reason of delay. In a symmetric timetable the reasons for delays are repeated throught the day. If you solve the conflict for one hour, then you solved it forever.

Trains in Italy are little used because:
1) they are often late (consequence of a badly planend timetable)
2) they are often dirty or broken (lack of maintenance)
3) big holes in the timetable (up to 3 hours without trains even on important lines like Milano-Bologna in IC services)
4) random timetables with random connections (or, more often, without conenctions)
5) expensive fares except on regional trains (that are almost useless for long trips)
6) difficulty to buy tickets (in the Milan S-Bahn/RER tunnel there are no tickets offices nor ticket vending machines...can you imagine Châtelet in Paris or Friedrichstrasse in Berlin without any possibility to buy tickets?)
Epic post.
LUCAFUSAR no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 12:22 PM   #289
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
K., you are assuming that is it in the interest of every company to coordinate schedules in a national basis.
I am asuming the presence of a governement that looks after the interests of the citizens. I know that is to much to ask for in some countries...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 12:25 PM   #290
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
km services / inhabitant = distance travelled by all revenue trains / population.
What the other poster mentioned was:

passengers*km: 15 CH, 46 IT, 82 FR

So 15 pkm for Switzerland. But what? Per inhabitant per year? Per inhabitant per day? Under both asumptions the figure is incorrect.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 12:44 PM   #291
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

It's in absolute numbers. The sum of the distance traveled by all passengers in Switzerland is 15 billions km, in Italy 46 billions.

100 pkm (passenger*km) can be 10 passengers doing 10 km each (10*10=100), 100 passengers doing 1 km each, or 1 passenger doing 100 km for example.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 01:50 PM   #292
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
It's in absolute numbers. The sum of the distance traveled by all passengers in Switzerland is 15 billions km, in Italy 46 billions.
Now I understand. Next time also mention the units used :-)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 04:53 PM   #293
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Anyway, hourly timetables are dumb in the sense it requires rolling stock to be allocated exactly the same all over the day. One of the reasons to break interval-spaced timetables it to use limited rolling stock in different services so you provide a so-so service in two routes instead of abbandoning one in favor of other.

With modern optmization software, you can easily, with a notebook, enter the data and let the computer optimize timetables taking every constrain into consideration. It will be a non-intuitive timetable, but Operations Research solid science has the answer to build things like timetables that minimize connecting time, increase availability of daily services etc.

Problem is when such an optimized timetable clash with students feeling entitled to sleep 45 min more so then will not arrive at inconvenient times in their universities nearby.

With the high-speed line between Bologna and Milano, there is no reason for that much IC services, just take an AV service and then connect from the opposite side with a regional train if you want, say, go from Milano to Reggio Emilia. It will cost a lot, but it is feasible, I've done once, worked perfecly.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 05:04 PM   #294
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Anyway, hourly timetables are dumb in the sense it requires rolling stock to be allocated exactly the same all over the day.
Which is better than letting stock sit idle most of the day.

Quote:
One of the reasons to break interval-spaced timetables it to use limited rolling stock in different services so you provide a so-so service in two routes instead of abbandoning one in favor of other.
It is usually a better idea to provide a good service on one line than providing a "so-so" service on two routes. But even then interval service is better, as you can optimize your train rosters. Having a train do on turn on one line, then one on the other, and so on.

Quote:
With the high-speed line between Bologna and Milano, there is no reason for that much IC services, just take an AV service and then connect from the opposite side with a regional train if you want, say, go from Milano to Reggio Emilia. It will cost a lot, but it is feasible, I've done once, worked perfecly.
The problem when services are not coordinated is that a lot of the speed gain on the AV service gets lost when you transfer to the regional service. That does not make economical sense, because this reduces (from the point of view of the passenger) the value of the speed gain that costed so much money to achieve in the first place. And coordinating services is a lot cheaper than building a lot of new high speed infrastructure. SBB manages to gain time for quite a few of it's customers every year by just small timetable adjustments.
(BTW, your example is outdated. There is an ES from Milano to Reggio Emilia. Every hour at a nice hourly interval...)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 18th, 2010, 05:20 PM   #295
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Anyway, hourly timetables are dumb in the sense it requires rolling stock to be allocated exactly the same all over the day. One of the reasons to break interval-spaced timetables it to use limited rolling stock in different services so you provide a so-so service in two routes instead of abbandoning one in favor of other.
I know well the example of the Piacenza-Cremona regional line. About a train every 90 minutes, with no service at all on sundays and in august, one single train that goes back and forth with random timetable and no connections with any other service. Trains are used only by students and people without a car. I know also the Bellinzona-Lugano line. A train every 15 minutes at peaks and every 30 minutes at other times, with connection with IC trains and buses, ridership is increasing. 4-car EMU are used, running in multiple at peaks, in single off-peak.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
With the high-speed line between Bologna and Milano, there is no reason for that much IC services, just take an AV service and then connect from the opposite side with a regional train if you want, say, go from Milano to Reggio Emilia. It will cost a lot, but it is feasible, I've done once, worked perfecly.
Just like a Reims-Nancy trip: feasible only with a TGV via Paris or with a few direct trains. I doubt train has a big share on this line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
(BTW, your example is outdated. There is an ES from Milano to Reggio Emilia. Every hour at a nice hourly interval...)
Between Milano and Reggio Emilia there was a gap of 3 hours, and more of two hours, betweend ecember 2008 and december 2009. Now there is an IC/ESCI train exactly every 60 minutes with some gaps (ESCI trains are standard IC trains but with higher prices).
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2010, 08:18 AM   #296
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
I know also the Bellinzona-Lugano line. A train every 15 minutes at peaks and every 30 minutes at other times, with connection with IC trains and buses, ridership is increasing. 4-car EMU are used, running in multiple at peaks, in single off-peak.
On of the best examples of integrated transport you'll find in the greater Zürich area. If you live in a neighborhood of, eg. Uster, you will have a bus stop near your house with a bus every 15 minutes to the station. This bus is timed so that at the station you connect with a train which also runs every 15 minutes (Uster actually has 8 trains per hour to Zürich, but they leave in pairs, as they serve different areas). You buy your ticket from a vending machine at the bus stop. This ticket is valid on the bus to the station, on the train to Zürich and back, and on any public transit in Zürich you might want to use during your day there...
Needless to say a lot of people take the train here. During rush hour more people travel to their work in Zürich by public transit than by car...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 19th, 2010, 12:16 PM   #297
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 768

I used this example because both couples of cities have about 80.000-100.000 inhabitants and are about 30 km from each other.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2010, 11:09 PM   #298
thib8500
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,876
Likes (Received): 770

We haven't talked about the new contracts with SNCF, Bombardier and Alstom.

Bombardier will build 860 2 levels TER trains in 2013 and Alstom will build 1000 TER trains that can run to 160 km/h.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xay...stom-sncf_tech
thib8500 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2010, 12:11 AM   #299
takini
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,349
Likes (Received): 89

French Corail coaches sold to Montenegro:

[IMG]http://i49.************/2i6o2h0.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i49.************/11lo7zb.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i46.************/10o2zh0.jpg[/IMG]

www.railserbia.net
takini no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 27th, 2010, 12:17 AM   #300
takini
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 1,349
Likes (Received): 89

[IMG]http://i45.************/9jqh38.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i50.************/14aidxd.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i49.************/1z5it7d.jpg[/IMG]

www.railserbia.net
takini no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
paris, paris transport

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium