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Old February 16th, 2011, 02:35 PM   #341
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In any country with relatively high standards of living, long-distance rail availability is not a factor on car ownership rates. If any train service category is to affect (and only to limited extents) car ownership and car usage rates, it is commuter rail, of whatever kind.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 02:40 PM   #342
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HSTs tickets are much cheaper in France than in Germany, I think exept for China, French HST are the cheapest in the world.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 02:55 PM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In any country with relatively high standards of living, long-distance rail availability is not a factor on car ownership rates. If any train service category is to affect (and only to limited extents) car ownership and car usage rates, it is commuter rail, of whatever kind.
Right.
The growth of train passengers in France is essentially due to the increase of suburban and regional services.
The TGV high speed train played a minor role.

It is not widely know fact but the majority of SNCF ridership is made by the suburban train network of Paris.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 03:03 PM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
Right.
The growth of train passengers in France is essentially due to the increase of suburban and regional services.
The TGV high speed train played a minor role.

It is not widely know fact but the majority of SNCF ridership is made by the suburban train network of Paris.
You say that, but the European Union Transport Statistical pocketbook 2010 says that the growth is massively coming from High Speed Rail:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/public...tistics_en.htm

France 2000: 70 bpkm 50% of this was HRS
France 2008: 84,97 bpkm 62% of this was HRS

At least when measured in billion passengers km, the data leaves no room for doubts. I would also like to see statistics in ridership instead of pkm, but this factbook doesn't have it.
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Last edited by sekelsenmat; February 16th, 2011 at 03:23 PM.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 03:19 PM   #345
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Previously I imagined that investing at a large, medium speed train network would be more effective then focusing in high-speed lines, because the medium speed trains would be cheaper to ride, and allow people to go to more places, allowing them to live without a car, therefore bringing more ridership.
Just to pick up on this premise though, TGVs to this day run more route km on medium speed lines than high speed ones, so I don't think the "allowing people to go more places" is a valid premise, because it isn't black and white in France.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 03:33 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Just to pick up on this premise though, TGVs to this day run more route km on medium speed lines than high speed ones, so I don't think the "allowing people to go more places" is a valid premise, because it isn't black and white in France.
Yes, the factbook says that they count based on the rolling stock, so indeed TVG trains running in common lines might mess up with the data...
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Old February 16th, 2011, 03:37 PM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
In any country with relatively high standards of living, long-distance rail availability is not a factor on car ownership rates. If any train service category is to affect (and only to limited extents) car ownership and car usage rates, it is commuter rail, of whatever kind.
The biggest factor in car ownership is actually availability of car parking.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 03:57 PM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
You say that, but the European Union Transport Statistical pocketbook 2010 says that the growth is massively coming from High Speed Rail:

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/public...tistics_en.htm

France 2000: 70 bpkm 50% of this was HRS
France 2008: 84,97 bpkm 62% of this was HRS

At least when measured in billion passengers km, the data leaves no room for doubts. I would also like to see statistics in ridership instead of pkm, but this factbook doesn't have it.
Of course if we count in billion passengers km, it would favor high speed rail where passengers travel on longer distance.
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Old February 16th, 2011, 08:34 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luli Pop View Post
HSTs tickets are much cheaper in France than in Germany, I think exept for China, French HST are the cheapest in the world.
Not for a long time.

Morocco will have the cheapest HST tickets, Tanger-Casablanca will be 330 km :

Actually
Tangier-Casablanca : 125 dh, 15 $, 11,5 euros

TGV increase :
10 - 15 dirhams = 1,2- 1,8 $ ; 1 - 1,5 euros

Futur price TGV :
Tangier Casablanca : 140 dhs, 17 $, 12,5 euros

Quote:
Quote:
THE HIGH SPEED TRAIN WILL NOT BE A LUXURY PRODUCT
CASABLANCA TANGER IN 2 HOURS 10 MINUTES
THE CIVIL ENGINEERING SUMMER start
ADJUSTABLE RATE INCREASE FROM 15 TO 20 HR IN RELATION TO THE CURRENT PRICE


Mohamed Rabie KHLIE, DG lONCF: "From Tangiers and Kenitra, the speed will be 300 km per hour and from the TGV Kenitra borrow the traditional network where it will travel at 160 km per hour

"The TGV is intended for our current customers. We're not about to invest for an elite clientele. Mohamed Rabie KHLIE, CEO ONCF responds to all those who see the future TGV, a product for the "rich".

The high speed train, including major civil works will start in summer 2011, should carry more than 6 million passengers, which can only come from existing clients of the Office, trying to show the boss ONCF . For once in service, resulting in roughly the same passengers who use the train now who will switch on the TGV. A migration that will not be possible without a ticket price to the "scope". The Board intends to establish a system of modular pricing or yield management already practiced in a standard network. "The train is a mass transport. We are obliged to have an optimal price to avoid a fracture compared to what is being done, "says KHLIE. Reflection on this issue is launched and the ticket will probably be the current rate increased from 15 to 20 dirhams, he promises.
For the first stretch of 200 km, linking Tangiers to Kenitra, the route adopted is close to the highway since the TGV requires a straight line. Between Kenitra and Tangier, the speed will be 300 km per hour and, from Kenitra, the TGV network will follow the classic where he will travel at 160 km per hour. The journey Tangier-Casablanca and will be insured in 2:10 minutes. A conventional service will however be maintained to deal with small stations that will not be served by the TGV. This will stop only at stations in Tangier, Kenitra, Rabat and Casablanca.
For management of ONCF, investments made so far in the line of Tangier (electrification and the shortcut between Tangier and Ksiri Mechraa Bel) will be capitalized. The line will then be dedicated to freight between Tangier and Casablanca.
Considered more interesting from a socio-economic, high-speed line will be carried out with French assistance. For over twenty one years SNCF experts are based in Rabat and working with their Moroccan counterparts.
For this first installment, a contract for the supply of fourteen oars at two levels has been signed with the French group Alstom. But not at any price, says the CEO of ONCF justifies the passage without a tender. "The commitment is to have a price as competitive as that practiced by Alstom and SNCF, which buys more than a hundred trains. And so if we were in a sense to tender it would never be able to get that advantage, "says KHLIE.
Enrolled in a strategic vision, the TGV project will also act as a lever of industrial development around the rail. This is the famous industrial compensation. So in addition to the provision and transfer of technology, the group Alstom to invest and create jobs. The development of an industrial fabric of SMEs for the purposes of the TGV and assembly workshops is planned for Europe
.
It has thus increase its supplies from local vendors, both with respect to requirements of its projects in Morocco and its contracts throughout Europe. Industrial units will be established in Morocco like what is happening in aviation in the context of offshoring. Besides the industrial benefits, an institute dedicated to the railway will be mounted with the SNCF.
Side funding, the project is completed. In addition to a contribution of Arab funds (nearly 3.5 billion dirhams), a French loan (6.75 billion dirhams) guaranteed by Coface and a donation (825 million DH) are granted. The Moroccan government, too, had a hand in the pocket. The general budget of the State and the Hassan II Fund for economic and social investing 5.9 billion DH for funding this project with a total of 20 billion DH.
Quote:
Expropriation

For purposes of the TGV, expropriations are considered especially on the side of Tangier. But they are unlikely to be numerous. Especially since the high-speed line crosses above the fields. "We'll touch some douars, but we will not limit ourselves to compensation. We want to improve the living conditions of people, "said Mohamed Rabie KHLIE, DG ONCF.
Actually
Tangier-Casablanca : 125 dh, 15 $, 11,5 euros

TGV increase :
10 - 15 dirhams = 1,2- 1,8 $ ; 1 - 1,5 euros

Futur price TGV :
Tangier Casablanca : 140 dhs, 17 $, 12,5 euros
Quote:
Tanger - Kenitra 320 km/h HSL
Kenitra - Casablanca 220 km/h upgradded line



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Old February 16th, 2011, 08:38 PM   #350
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Is it already opened?
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Old February 16th, 2011, 09:09 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Is it already opened?
Not yet. Preliminary works began, big works on next june and the HSL will be opened at en 2015.

We know the approximative prices because authorities want to show that is a project of all moroccans, and not for an elite and tourists.

But for a low ticket price, we need a low investment with all international specs. The line will have a 350 km/h max speed (300 or 320 km/h on service), ERMTS ... but with a low price.


This is a comparaison of HSL costs in Morocco, France and Europe.

The High-Speed Rail Project in Morocco, Pros and Cons

Quote:
Les coûts de réalisation des LGV hors matériel roulant


LGV Tanger - Kénitra | 200 km | 1,409 milliards € | 7 M€/km


LGV Rhin-Rhône | 148 km | 2,312 milliards € | 15,62 M€/km

LGV Est européenne | 300 km | 4,193 milliards € | 13,79 M€/km

LGV Méditerranée | 250 km | 4,334 milliards € | 17,336 M€/km

LGV Sud Europe Atlantique | 300 km | 7 milliards € | 23,333 M€/km

LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire | 182 km | 4 milliards € | 21,978 M€/km

LGV PACA | 180 km | 7 milliards € | 38,888 M€/km

LGV Bordeaux-Toulouse | 200 km | 3 milliards € | 15 M€/km

LGV Normandie | 450 km | 10 milliards € | 22,222 M€/km

LGV Paris-Orléans-Clermont-Lyon | 410 km | 12 milliards € | 29,268 M€/km



LGV 1 (Belgique) | 88 km | 1,42 milliards € | 16,136 M€/km

LGV Perpignan-Figueras (France-Espagne) | 44,4 km | 1,1 milliards € | 24,774 M€/km

LGV Hanovre - Wurtzbourg (Allemagne) | 327 km | 280 km/h | 6,1 milliards € | 18,654 M€/km

LGV Hanovre - Berlin (Allemagne) | 258 km | 250 km/h | 2,6 milliards € | 10,077 M€/km

LGV Lyon - Turin (France-Italie) | 291 km | 11,8 milliards € | 40,5498 M€/km

LGV High Speed 1 (tunnel sous la manche) (Royaume-Uni) | 108 km | 6.278 milliards € | 58,129 M€/km

Le coût moyen de ces 15 LGV équivaux à ~24,38 M€/km

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Old February 16th, 2011, 09:25 PM   #352
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^ What about a comparison of ticket prices?

How much do tickets in France generally cost?

I tryed to search in the French Railways website, but they say: Suite à un grand nombre de visites, le moteur de recherche est momentanément indisponible.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 02:45 AM   #353
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Price varies on the TGV depending the periods of the years, the day, hours, the number of place reserved... (Reservations are required in the TGV)
It is a big mess, hard to find an average price.

February 17, 2011 (busy holiday period) for a Paris Marseille single trip (2nd class) I find prices between €63 and €150.
The most common price is €104.

One month later in March. TGV Paris Marseille (2nd class).
I find price between €35 !! and €140
The average prices seems to be near the €75.
I even see some 1st class ticket for €37 !!

Usually, earlier you made the booking more interesting are the prices.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 05:17 AM   #354
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One factor in France is the high cost of tolled highways. Often you pay a similar amount in tolls as a single TGV ticket would cost.
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Old February 17th, 2011, 05:51 PM   #355
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Quote:
Southern LGV projects make progress

09 February 2011


FRANCE: Visiting Montpellier on February 7, Transport Secretary Thierry Mariani signed an agreement with local authority representatives covering the programme for construction of the planned Contournement Nîmes - Montpellier bypass line which will carry high speed and freight trains around the two cities as an extension to the Nîmes branch from LGV Méditerranée.

The agreement with RFF, the Languedoc-Rousillon regional council, the Conseil général of Gard and the municipal administrations of Montpellier and Nîmes builds on an earlier agreement signed in December 2009 which covered financial and operational issues. The new deal sets timescales for key elements of the project, including the construction of new stations in both cities.

Signing of the agreement will allow RFF to start discussions 'in the next few days' with the bidders for the planned public-private partnership, with the aim of announcing a preferred bidder by the end of this year. Construction of the 80 km CNM route is estimated to cost around €1·6bn at 2007 prices. It is expected to reduce Paris - Montpellier journey times to 3 h and permit the expansion of local TER services on the existing line.

Noting the inauguration of the Perpignan - Figueres cross-border link on January 27, the transport ministry said it expected to see the start of public enquiries for the proposed high speed line between Montpellier and Perpignan by 2015, with a view to starting construction of this section by 2020.

Meeting on February 3, the board of the government's transport
infrastructure funding agency AFITF adopted its budget for 2011, which includes a €1·7bn contribution towards the cost of the Tours - Bordeaux section of LGV Sud Europe Atlantique. Total cost of this line, which will cut 50 min off Paris - Bordeaux journey times, is put at around €7·8bn. RFF has already selected a group led by Vinci to undertake the PPP project with debt financing provided by nine commercial banks.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...-progress.html
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Old March 10th, 2011, 08:17 PM   #356
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Minato, i've got a question. Ever since december 2009 the Z 50000 'Francilien' trains run the service between Paris-Nord and Luzarches, with more sets coming to use on almost the whole line H. But we are 15 months further now, and my question is: Have the sets been used on other services then Paris-Nord - Luzarches? I haven't heared anything about it, but i dont follow it. So i thought maybe you would know it!
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Old March 11th, 2011, 12:21 AM   #357
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I also don't follow it but I don't think that any Z50000 have been used in passenger services outside Paris Nord Luzarche line.







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Old March 11th, 2011, 01:03 AM   #358
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A RER train?
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Old March 11th, 2011, 01:11 AM   #359
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Weird. According to the geek world at wikipedia there are 20 sets in use on the line, so at least 10 would be parked on a parking site somewhere...
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A RER train?
No, it is a train of the Transilien-network. To be precise: Line H, at gare du nord banlieue.
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Old March 11th, 2011, 01:15 AM   #360
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Weird. According to the geek world at wikipedia there are 20 sets in use on the line, so at least 10 would be parked on a parking site somewhere...

No, it is a train of the Transilien-network. To be precise: Line H, at gare du nord banlieue.
Ah, the Transilien... The suburban train system of Paris, all right? RER is another suburban train system that covers Paris like a subway.
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