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Old July 2nd, 2011, 07:29 PM   #421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
In my opinion, the two most important "other projects" are:
* Paris - Orleans - Limoges - Toulouse
* Paris - Amiens - Calais


Do you own a house in South-western France?

I don´t think these two lines are a priority at all, nor are they in the mid-term plans of the French authorities.

Not when the Tours-Poitiers-Angouleme-Bordeaux line is in project stage, and very soon will see the works started, and some time later it will be extended from Bordeaux to Agen, Montauban and Toulouse.

The Paris-Amiens-Calais line is just a dream England and Picardy have as it would shorten the time travel from Paris to London by following a more straight route.
But the Eurostar via Lille does no bad service either, so I don´t think there will be any serious talk of such line in decades...
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Old July 2nd, 2011, 08:22 PM   #422
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Toulouse will then become the biggest metropolitan area cut-off from the TGV network, having. It also has poor highway connections, so it is becoming a neglected area.
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Old July 2nd, 2011, 10:47 PM   #423
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I would not say that Toulouse has poor highways connections, the city well connected with its surrounding.
The problem of Toulouse is that it is located in a low populated area, far to any other important city.

While the highways connection with Paris, Bordeaux or the french Mediterranean coast are good, the Pyrenees prevent an effective link with Barcelona.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 02:04 AM   #424
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And... Does anyone at Toulouse think on Central Pyrenees Pass? (benefits, traffic, shuttles...)
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 12:03 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What about a project to link Clermont-Ferrand?
The plan is Paris - Orleans - Clermont-Ferrand - Lyon.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...-outlined.html

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Do you own a house in South-western France?
No, but if you would like to buy one for me, I would gratefully accept. ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
I don´t think these two lines are a priority at all, nor are they in the mid-term plans of the French authorities.

Not when the Tours-Poitiers-Angouleme-Bordeaux line is in project stage, and very soon will see the works started, and some time later it will be extended from Bordeaux to Agen, Montauban and Toulouse.
Paris to Toulouse now requires 6 hours by train. Via Bordeaux will eventually reduce that to about 3 hours 15 minutes when the project you describe is complete. Via Orleans and Limoges would be about 2 hours. Reducing the large number of flights between Paris and Toulouse would help the environment.

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
The Paris-Amiens-Calais line is just a dream England and Picardy have as it would shorten the time travel from Paris to London by following a more straight route.
But the Eurostar via Lille does no bad service either, so I don´t think there will be any serious talk of such line in decades...
Reducing travel time between Paris and London to 2 hours would benefit both France and England. It would also further reduce airline flights between the England and France to the benefit of the environment. LGV Paris - Lille is expected to reach capacity sometime in the 2020s.

Last edited by mcarling; July 4th, 2011 at 08:29 AM. Reason: typo
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 01:07 PM   #426
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I don't know, if that would make sense... Paris - Milano via Geneve would take around seven hours (3:05 for Paris-Geneve + 3:53 for Geneve-Milano) so it's not really shorter than the trip via the French Alps and the TGVs aren't even using the high speed line between Torino and Milano. If they would use it, the journey would take only around 6 hours and 15 minutes.
Also from the economic view it wouldn't make much sense to use the route via Switzerland.
A logical route for such a service would be Paris - Dijon - Lausanne - Milano. That is in fact almost a straight line even. Time would be under 7 hours. The advantage of this route is that it passes through Dijon (soon to be a major hub on the SNCF network) and Lausanne (already a big hub). You would basically be able to serve quite a few different markets with one train...
And to speed up the route you'd to talk with the Swiss, who do have the money to invest in such a project...
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 01:39 PM   #427
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
A logical route for such a service would be Paris - Dijon - Lausanne - Milano. That is in fact almost a straight line even. Time would be under 7 hours. The advantage of this route is that it passes through Dijon (soon to be a major hub on the SNCF network) and Lausanne (already a big hub). You would basically be able to serve quite a few different markets with one train...
And to speed up the route you'd to talk with the Swiss, who do have the money to invest in such a project...
The time via this route would be likely the same like via Torino (Paris - Lausanne 3:39 + Lausanne - Milano 3:15). When they build the LGV Rhin Rhone branch "OUEST" (Dijon-Aisy; length 90km), the travel time from Paris to Lausanne could be reduced to ~ 3:15. But what should they build in Switzerland to speed up the line? There would be just a lot of costs for a project that is not really useful for them... And they have already a lot of other expensive projects - DML in Zurich, Gotthard and Ceneri base tunnel, CEVA, FMV and so on.
If they build the Lyon-Torino high speed line and use the high speed line between Milano and Torino, then the travel time will be a bit over 4:30. But I know, that till then we have to wait at least 15 years.

Video from a test ride on the new line (driver cabin view): http://franche-comte.france3.fr/info...10720111007_F3
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 04:57 PM   #428
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Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
I would not say that Toulouse has poor highways connections, the city well connected with its surrounding.
The problem of Toulouse is that it is located in a low populated area, far to any other important city.
...except from Barcelona.

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While the highways connection with Paris, Bordeaux or the french Mediterranean coast are good, the Pyrenees prevent an effective link with Barcelona.
Not via Narbonne-Girona. Toulouse (and Bordeaux too, btw) will be in 1/2 years well connected to Barcelona by TGV. The one thing we dont´know yet is how many trains there will be to start with.

And through the Pyrenees, the work of the E-09 axe goes on. There´s a motorway between Toulouse and Foix, and another between Berga and Barcelona.

Last edited by 437.001; July 3rd, 2011 at 05:09 PM.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 05:07 PM   #429
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The plan is Paris - Orleans - Clermont-Ferrand - Lyon.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...-outlined.html
Which will require time and lots of money to cross the mountains between Nevers/Moulins and Lyon, but is definitely more needed than those two you named.

Quote:
No, but if you would like to buy one for me, I would gratefully accept. ;-)
Ok, I´ll see what I can do... might take a little longer than expected, alright?
By the way, where exactly in south-western France would you like it?


Quote:
Paris to Toulouse now requires 6 hours by train.
Wasn´t it five?

Quote:
Via Bordeaux will eventually reduce that to about 3 hours 15 minutes when the project you describe is complete. Via Orleans and Limoges would be about 2 hours. Reducing the large number of flights between Paris and Toulouse would help the environment.
On the paper, that looks brilliant. The problem is that between Argenton sur Creuse (right after Chateauroux) and Caussade (a little before Montauban)
the region is rather montainous - not high mountains, but definitely NOT FLAT AT ALL. That would make the cost of a HSL enormous.

Quote:
Reducing travel time between Paris and London to 2 hours would benefit both France and England. I would also further reduce airline flights between the England and France to the benefit of the environment. LGV Paris - Lille is expected to reach capacity sometime in the 2020s.
I know, but since that line is not at full capacity yet... better wait.
That one will have to be built someday though, but not yet.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:18 PM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Which will require time and lots of money to cross the mountains between Nevers/Moulins and Lyon, but is definitely more needed than those two you named.
Paris - Lyon is already well served by the TGV. The main problem is that the Paris - Lyon LGV line is already nearing capacity. Paris - Toulouse is not well served and is very nearly as important as Paris - Lyon.

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Ok, I´ll see what I can do... might take a little longer than expected, alright?
By the way, where exactly in south-western France would you like it?
I'll take just about anything for free. Beggars can't be choosers. ;-)

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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Wasn´t it five?
You're right. Paris - Toulouse is currently about five hours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
On the paper, that looks brilliant. The problem is that between Argenton sur Creuse (right after Chateauroux) and Caussade (a little before Montauban)
the region is rather montainous - not high mountains, but definitely NOT FLAT AT ALL. That would make the cost of a HSL enormous.
Yes, the Paris - Orleans - Limoges - Toulouse will be expensive, but I believe it will be worthwhile and that it will eventually be built.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
I know, but since that line is not at full capacity yet... better wait.
That one will have to be built someday though, but not yet.
The French government currently plan to build the Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line in the late 2020s. I expect the Paris - Lille line will already be at capacity by the time it will be relieved by the Paris - Calais LGV. There is no point is delaying it further.
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:39 PM   #431
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Paris - Lyon is already well served by the TGV. The main problem is that the Paris - Lyon LGV line is already nearing capacity.
And it is indeed becoming a problem, true. The main issue is... how to pay such a line.

Quote:
Paris - Toulouse is not well served and is very nearly as important as Paris - Lyon.
Paris-Toulouse will improve a lot when the Tours-Bordeaux (-Toulouse) line will be built, but also with the extension of the Paris-Nimes line further south to Montpellier and Narbonne and of course further south.

Quote:
I'll take just about anything for free. Beggars can't be choosers. ;-)
Does a shoe box with the word "Dordogne" carefully hand-written on it work for you?

Quote:
Yes, the Paris - Orleans - Limoges - Toulouse will be expensive, but I believe it will be worthwhile and that it will eventually be built.
Not so sure about it. And in case it eventually came as a project, it would be the least of all the TGV lines to be built, all the others in project or planned are on top of it in terms of priority.

Quote:
The French government currently plan to build the Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line in the late 2020s. I expect the Paris - Lille line will already be at capacity by the time it will be relieved by the Paris - Calais LGV. There is no point is delaying it further.
I know, looks like it´s somehow coupled with the HSL to Normandy.
But it is definitely much less a need than the line to Normandy.
Although the Brussels money might help in its construction, but I´m not sure of it as there´s already the LGV Nord...
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 06:47 PM   #432
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
...except from Barcelona.


And Zaragoza (by car 20 km more only... considering faster way in both cases)
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Old July 3rd, 2011, 07:07 PM   #433
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And Zaragoza (by car 20 km more only... considering faster way in both cases)
Only 20 more km??? Are you sure?
Through which route, Vielha?
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Old July 4th, 2011, 02:19 AM   #434
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Originally Posted by hhouse View Post
there will be one new TGV between Frankfurt and Marseille, but the travel time is to long at the moment - according to this post: http://ice-treff.de/index.php?id=128337 it will take 7 hours and 45 minutes with 11 stops and the arrival at 10 p.m. is also really unattractive!
Yeah but because of that we will finally get direct train Frankfurt - Strasbourg
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Old July 4th, 2011, 09:57 AM   #435
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Yeah but because of that we will finally get direct train Frankfurt - Strasbourg
From 2016, when the second phase of the LGV Est is finished, there will be even more connections via Strasbourg (hopefully)
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Old July 5th, 2011, 12:49 AM   #436
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Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Only 20 more km??? Are you sure?
Through which route, Vielha?


Bielsa tunnel route is faster and has less, less traffic.

Tunnel is about 50 km away from motorway near Bagneres de Bigorre and 95 km away from motorway at Barbastro.

The rest (except one little part still on project) is motorway.



And... it would be, more or less, the way chosen for the central Pyrenees railway route.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 01:42 PM   #437
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And it is indeed becoming a problem, true. The main issue is... how to pay such a line.



Paris-Toulouse will improve a lot when the Tours-Bordeaux (-Toulouse) line will be built, but also with the extension of the Paris-Nimes line further south to Montpellier and Narbonne and of course further south.



Does a shoe box with the word "Dordogne" carefully hand-written on it work for you?



Not so sure about it. And in case it eventually came as a project, it would be the least of all the TGV lines to be built, all the others in project or planned are on top of it in terms of priority.



I know, looks like it´s somehow coupled with the HSL to Normandy.
But it is definitely much less a need than the line to Normandy.
Although the Brussels money might help in its construction, but I´m not sure of it as there´s already the LGV Nord...
Brussels might be keen, because if this line is for dedicated London - Paris trains, there will be more capacity on LGV Nord for Brussels - Lille/London/Paris trains. And trains from London to beyond Brussels also (the new routes to Netherlands/Germany etc...) including ones via CDG/Disney which would use LGV Nord still.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 06:01 PM   #438
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Brussels might be keen, because if this line is for dedicated London - Paris trains, there will be more capacity on LGV Nord for Brussels - Lille/London/Paris trains. And trains from London to beyond Brussels also (the new routes to Netherlands/Germany etc...) including ones via CDG/Disney which would use LGV Nord still.
The thing that Brussels cares more about than anything else (within the scope of rail constructions) is capacity to Brussels. The planned LGV Paris - Amiens - Calais is important to Brussels because it will benefit Brussels by relieving the capacity issues on LGV Nord.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 06:59 PM   #439
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The thing that Brussels cares more about than anything else (within the scope of rail constructions) is capacity to Brussels. The planned LGV Paris - Amiens - Calais is important to Brussels because it will benefit Brussels by relieving the capacity issues on LGV Nord.
But LGV Nord is still far removed to being capacity constrained.
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Old July 6th, 2011, 11:53 PM   #440
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But LGV Nord is still far removed to being capacity constrained.
As an objective observer you might be right. But if you were the mayor of Amiens you'd say something else.
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