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Old July 7th, 2011, 03:23 PM   #441
cle
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As the new Eurostar trains are proposed to run at 320 km/h, I'm assuming this is on LGV Nord - is it ready for running at 320km/h? In terms of signalling, pathing different speeds etc....

How much time realistically would this save on a trip from London to Paris? It's 6.25% faster - if the train did a flat hour at top speed it would save 3.75 mins. Is the acceleration better maybe? As I've heard that journey times would be better - bad journalism?
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Old July 7th, 2011, 04:16 PM   #442
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As an objective observer you might be right. But if you were the mayor of Amiens you'd say something else.
What would I say if I were the mayor of Amiens?
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Old July 8th, 2011, 11:05 PM   #443
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Amiens is quite upset to be forgotten by the TGV.
Today it is faster to do Paris - Lille than Amiens - Paris or Amiens - Lille.
The train journey between Paris and Amiens is slower today than it was in the 1960's.
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Old July 9th, 2011, 10:01 AM   #444
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Amiens is quite upset to be forgotten by the TGV.
Today it is faster to do Paris - Lille than Amiens - Paris or Amiens - Lille.
The train journey between Paris and Amiens is slower today than it was in the 1960's.
That is indeed a problem with the SNCF approach to high speed. SNCF builds lines without considering the overall network.
But I don't think Amiens warrants a new LGV. There is no reason, except SNCF short sightedness why Paris - Amiens would have to be slower now than it is in the 60ies. With a few incremental improvements a trip time of under one hour, and an hourly service would be possible.
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Old July 9th, 2011, 07:08 PM   #445
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Paris - Amiens - Calais

"Will a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line be needed in the future?" seems to me a non-serious question. The fact that LGV Nord Paris - Lille is headed toward a capacity shortfall in the 2020s suffices, in my opinion, to answer the question of Paris - Amiens - Calais. Reducing Paris - London trip times to two hours is an added benefit without which the line is justified anyway.

In my opinion, the serious question, for which there is room for divergence of opinion, is when will a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line be needed.

If we take it as a premise that there will someday be a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line (I believe we should, both for the reasons above and because the government are planning to build it), then it is not clear whether or not money spent on the existing Paris - Amiens line to reduce trip times would be a good investment or not.

Last edited by mcarling; July 9th, 2011 at 07:26 PM.
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Old July 12th, 2011, 08:57 AM   #446
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
"Will a Paris - Amiens - Calais LGV line be needed in the future?" seems to me a non-serious question. The fact that LGV Nord Paris - Lille is headed toward a capacity shortfall in the 2020s suffices, in my opinion, to answer the question of Paris - Amiens - Calais.
But is this line headed toward a capacity shortfall?
Currently the line sees:
* Lille - Paris Nord hourly.
* Brussel - Paris Nord twice per hour
* London - Paris Nord more or less hourly
* Lille - CDG and beyond about hourly.

So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity. Are you saying that traffic will increase fivefold in just a decade on that line?
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Old July 12th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #447
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So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity.
How do you figure that you can run 25 trains per hour at 300 km/h?
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Old July 12th, 2011, 08:38 PM   #448
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with Chinese laser speed-counter the minimun is 5 minutes, right?
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Old July 12th, 2011, 09:01 PM   #449
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A train every five minutes means 12 tph.
The max on the LGV Nord is 10 tph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity. Are you saying that traffic will increase fivefold in just a decade on that line?
There is more trains than that running on the LGV Nord.
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Old July 12th, 2011, 10:02 PM   #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
But is this line headed toward a capacity shortfall?
Currently the line sees:
* Lille - Paris Nord hourly.
* Brussel - Paris Nord twice per hour
* London - Paris Nord more or less hourly
* Lille - CDG and beyond about hourly.

So about 5 trains per hour per direction on average. Which is about a fifth of it's theoretical capacity. Are you saying that traffic will increase fivefold in just a decade on that line?
You forget about the political dimension. To build the LGV Nord in on straight line from Paris to Lille was a political decision. And now Amiens wants the same for itself. Furthermore 5 services to Paris per hour is more than enough for Lille they might say. So at least one those should be rerouted to Amiens.
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Old July 12th, 2011, 10:43 PM   #451
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Looking at tomorrow mornings timetable.

TGV Paris-Lille: twice per hour
Thalys: twice per hour
Eurostar: once every hour
TGV CDG - Lille/Brussel: twice every hour
TGV - Paris - Arras: Once every 2 hours

That's already 7-8 trains per hour, with peaks to 9 trains per hour.

With a capacity of 10 trains there's not that much room for more trains. But there's still room to increase the frequency on the line and to use more TGV Duplex sets, that's more realistic then a complete new line at the moment.

A new line from Paris to Lyon should have a bigger priority right now since the capacity problems on the Sud-Est are more urgent.
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Old July 12th, 2011, 10:44 PM   #452
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I edit for searching references
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Old July 12th, 2011, 11:08 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
A new line from Paris to Lyon should have a bigger priority right now since the capacity problems on the Sud-Est are more urgent.
In fact the French government plan to start the 2nd Paris - Lyon line before the Paris - Amiens - Calais line.
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Old July 12th, 2011, 11:30 PM   #454
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Paris Saint Lazare x25
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Old July 13th, 2011, 10:29 AM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
How do you figure that you can run 25 trains per hour at 300 km/h?
I did make the wrong assumption regarding current theoretical capacity on the LGV Nord, which is a train every 3 minutes. That makes 20 tph, but to keep the timetable stable only 15 tph are really useable. However, with a train distance of 2 minutes you can run up to 30 tph in theory, 25 tph in practice. I would think that resignalling the line would be a lot cheaper than building a new one...
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Old July 13th, 2011, 10:30 AM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Looking at tomorrow mornings timetable.

TGV Paris-Lille: twice per hour
Thalys: twice per hour
Eurostar: once every hour
TGV CDG - Lille/Brussel: twice every hour
TGV - Paris - Arras: Once every 2 hours

That's already 7-8 trains per hour, with peaks to 9 trains per hour.

With a capacity of 10 trains there's not that much room for more trains.
But currently capacity is 15 tph.
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Old July 13th, 2011, 10:49 AM   #457
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Quote:
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But currently capacity is 15 tph.
Source?
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Old July 14th, 2011, 09:58 AM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
Source?
The busiest LGV is the one to Lyon, with maximum 12 tph. That one uses TVM300, which allows 5 minutes between trains. The LGV Nord uses TVM430, which allows 3 minutes between trains, so theoretical it would have a capacity of 20 tph. However, you do want some buffer, so 15 tph is practical.
12 tph on the LGV Sud-Est is at the limit, which is why SNCF doesn't run 12 tph all day on that line, or they could never recover from delays. SNCF does have plans to upgrade the line to 15 tph over the next couple of years, and to 25 tph over the next decade.

For 25tph + buffer you would need headways of 2 minutes, which is complex, but feaseable, and certainly cheaper than building a new line. (However, building a new line via an other route has advantages too...)

edit: this page has the specs for the tgv signalling systems.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/signals.html
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Old July 14th, 2011, 12:07 PM   #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The busiest LGV is the one to Lyon, with maximum 12 tph. That one uses TVM300, which allows 5 minutes between trains. The LGV Nord uses TVM430, which allows 3 minutes between trains, so theoretical it would have a capacity of 20 tph. However, you do want some buffer, so 15 tph is practical.
12 tph on the LGV Sud-Est is at the limit, which is why SNCF doesn't run 12 tph all day on that line, or they could never recover from delays. SNCF does have plans to upgrade the line to 15 tph over the next couple of years, and to 25 tph over the next decade.

For 25tph + buffer you would need headways of 2 minutes, which is complex, but feaseable, and certainly cheaper than building a new line. (However, building a new line via an other route has advantages too...)

edit: this page has the specs for the tgv signalling systems.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/signals.html
Thanks for that!

Of course, the eventual capacity limitation of LGV Nord is not the only reason to build LGV Paris - Amiens - Calais.
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Old July 17th, 2011, 11:58 PM   #460
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LGV Bretagne financing agreement signed

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...nt-signed.html

This will run from Le Mans to Rennes, reducing Paris - Rennes times by 40 minutes.

Fair use excerpts:

"An agreement confirming the public financing package for LGV Bretagne - Pays de la Loire was signed in Rennes on July 12 ...."

"Major works are expected to start in 2012 and be completed by the end of 2016."
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