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Old July 20th, 2011, 06:57 PM   #461
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Old July 21st, 2011, 02:18 AM   #462
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I don't believe in the usefulness of a line Paris-Amiens-Calais. It does not offer enough relief for the Paris-Lille line since it only takes away the couple of Eurostar trains.
It would be much wiser to four-track the busiest section from Vemars (near CDG) to Croisilles (branch to Arras).
To give Amiens better access to Paris, which is a fair ask, they should upgrade the line Amiens-Tergniers and build a curve to the LGV at Chaulnes.

To speed up trains to London they could operate the 3rd and 4th track with 3xxkm/h without getting problems because of too many trains with a different performance curve on the same track.
A south-eastern bypass of Lille between Carvin and Armentiere could shorten the route to Calais by 20km and also bypass the 220km/h speed restriction throught Lille Europe station.
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Old July 21st, 2011, 09:29 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by JoFMO View Post
I don't believe in the usefulness of a line Paris-Amiens-Calais. It does not offer enough relief for the Paris-Lille line since it only takes away the couple of Eurostar trains.
It would be much wiser to four-track the busiest section from Vemars (near CDG) to Croisilles (branch to Arras).
To give Amiens better access to Paris, which is a fair ask, they should upgrade the line Amiens-Tergniers and build a curve to the LGV at Chaulnes.

To speed up trains to London they could operate the 3rd and 4th track with 3xxkm/h without getting problems because of too many trains with a different performance curve on the same track.
A south-eastern bypass of Lille between Carvin and Armentiere could shorten the route to Calais by 20km and also bypass the 220km/h speed restriction throught Lille Europe station.
Your proposal would cost more than half what the planned LGV Picardie (Paris - Amiens - Calais) line would cost and provide less than half the benefit.
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Old August 23rd, 2011, 05:40 PM   #464
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I think that the LGV Picardie could be an important part in making services as Lyon-London (or further north in the UK and vice versa in France) viable.

Would thay save more than the 20 minutes billed from London to Paris if they run at 350-400kph? (i.e. similar speeds to the proposed HS2 in the UK?)
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Old August 24th, 2011, 08:00 AM   #465
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I think that the LGV Picardie could be an important part in making services as Lyon-London (or further north in the UK and vice versa in France) viable.

Would thay save more than the 20 minutes billed from London to Paris if they run at 350-400kph? (i.e. similar speeds to the proposed HS2 in the UK?)
There is a way of shaving 20 minutes of London to Paris that doesn't involve any expensive infrastructure: Get rid of the silly check in and security theatre. That would make direct trains from London to other places on the continent immediately viable.

Last edited by K_; August 24th, 2011 at 02:12 PM.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:52 AM   #466
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Okay - fair point.

But if we were looking at infrastructure improvements only?
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Old August 24th, 2011, 12:03 PM   #467
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Which are, currently, lines under construction in France?
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Old August 24th, 2011, 12:07 PM   #468
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If I recall correctly, the 20 minute expected reduction in Paris - London times when the LGV Picardie (Paris - Amiens - Calais) opens is based on a planned maximum speed of 320km/h. If the line would operate at 350km/h then, of course, the time savings would be greater than 20 minutes.

Either way, London - Paris times would be under 2 hours, making rail even more competitive with flying. Air passengers between Paris and London would probably be limited to those with connecting flights at one end or the other.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 01:24 PM   #469
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Which are, currently, lines under construction in France?
The LGV Rhin-Rhône Line is nearing completion. The extension of the LGV Méditerranée Line to Montpellier and Perpignan is also under construction, due to open in 2013. Construction should begin very soon on the extension of the LGV Est Line to Strasbourg, the LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire Line to Rennes, and the LGV Sud-Ouest Line to Bordeaux.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #470
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There is a way of shaving 20 minutes of London to Paris that doesn't involve any expensive infrastructure: Get rid of the silly check in and security theatre. That would make direct trains from London to other places on the continent immediately viable.

Are you talking about time between London & Paris or overall travel time from from leaving home?
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Old August 24th, 2011, 04:55 PM   #471
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Are you talking about time between London & Paris or overall travel time from from leaving home?
I'm talking about what matters for the traveller: Door to door times.
If I have to be at the station half an hour before departure that adds half an hour to my travel time.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 05:43 PM   #472
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Originally Posted by mcarling View Post
The LGV Rhin-Rhône Line is nearing completion. The extension of the LGV Méditerranée Line to Montpellier and Perpignan is also under construction, due to open in 2013. Construction should begin very soon on the extension of the LGV Est Line to Strasbourg, the LGV Bretagne-Pays de la Loire Line to Rennes, and the LGV Sud-Ouest Line to Bordeaux.
Ehm, the construction already started since nearly one year... Completion March 2016 (planned).
The Countournement between Nimes and Montpellier is not yet under construction. Planned completion 2016.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:19 PM   #473
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I'm talking about what matters for the traveller: Door to door times.
If I have to be at the station half an hour before departure that adds half an hour to my travel time.
Door to door! He he he. You don't really believe that taking the check-in and passport check away would seriously save you 20 minutes! Sorry, its 30 minutes now! Do you live on the platform? You do realise that our glorious integrated transport system can leave you waiting for over 45 minutes for your connection?

This has nothing to do with your pathetic belief that everything would be better if we were (shudder) part of Shengen so get over it.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:26 PM   #474
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Your proposal would cost more than half what the planned LGV Picardie (Paris - Amiens - Calais) line would cost and provide less than half the benefit.
Where is the benefit in building a new 200km long line for several billion Euro while only removing a maximum of 2 trains per hour from the overcrowded TGV nord line?
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Old August 25th, 2011, 06:48 AM   #475
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Door to door! He he he. You don't really believe that taking the check-in and passport check away would seriously save you 20 minutes!
It would. This is not a matter of belief, but a matter of being able to add minutes together. Without the check you can leave home later for quite a few of potential points of origin. Without the check in you could even organize a cross-platform transfer between Eurostar and a intersector TGV in Lille, thus increasing the value of your service immensely to quite a large number of potential customers.
And you could even do something you hardly can't practically do now: Have a Eurostar server places beyond Paris.

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Sorry, its 30 minutes now! Do you live on the platform? You do realise that our glorious integrated transport system can leave you waiting for over 45 minutes for your connection?
If it makes you wait for 45 minutes than it's not well integrated, and certainly not glorious. There is no black magic involved in timing transfers at major hubs, you know.

But this has nothing to do with "living on the platform" or integration, but simply with the fact that the check - in deadline is the de-facto departure time of the Eurostar train from the point of view of the passengers. This is the time that you have to take in to account when planning how and when you go to the terminal. Take away that check in and the effect is the same as it would be if you cut 30 minutes of the time on route.

In both cases you suddenly you can turn up at the terminal 30 minutes later. Don't tell me that this does not mean you can leave home later for quite a few passengers.

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This has nothing to do with your pathetic belief that everything would be better if we were (shudder) part of Shengen so get over it.
What has this to do with Schengen? Where have I voiced the belief that the UK should join Schengen? There was a time before Schengen. International trains did not require passengers to be at the station 30 minutes beforehand for check in or subject to pointless security theatre then either.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 10:49 AM   #476
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
It would. This is not a matter of belief, but a matter of being able to add minutes together. Without the check you can leave home later for quite a few of potential points of origin. Without the check in you could even organize a cross-platform transfer between Eurostar and a intersector TGV in Lille, thus increasing the value of your service immensely to quite a large number of potential customers.
And you could even do something you hardly can't practically do now: Have a Eurostar server places beyond Paris.

You still need to allow time on your journey to the terminal. As long as the train originates in, or is going to, the UK the check-in will remain. It makes no difference time wise. If 20-30 minutes is so important to you then I would suggest you either take the car, fly, organise your life better or use some other form of transport.

If it makes you wait for 45 minutes than it's not well integrated, and certainly not glorious. There is no black magic involved in timing transfers at major hubs, you know.

Sarcasm is lost on you.

But this has nothing to do with "living on the platform" or integration, but simply with the fact that the check - in deadline is the de-facto departure time of the Eurostar train from the point of view of the passengers. This is the time that you have to take in to account when planning how and when you go to the terminal. Take away that check in and the effect is the same as it would be if you cut 30 minutes of the time on route.

In both cases you suddenly you can turn up at the terminal 30 minutes later. Don't tell me that this does not mean you can leave home later for quite a few passengers.

See my first point. And it isn't the de-facto departure time for passengers. If a plane was due to leave LHR for CDG at 10:00 would you assume that it was leaving at 09:15 as you're requested to check-in a minimum of 45 minutes from the scheduled departure time? Of course you wouldn't. As would 99.99999999% of the worlds population.



What has this to do with Schengen? Where have I voiced the belief that the UK should join Schengen? There was a time before Schengen. International trains did not require passengers to be at the station 30 minutes beforehand for check in or subject to pointless security theatre then either.

You have continuously complained about having to check-in for trains originating in, or leaving from, the UK throughout the Railway section. Something that, god forbid, wouldn't be in place if we (the UK) were part of Schengen.

Yes there was a time before Schengen. If you were entering or leaving the UK by any means of transport you had to have a passport. Nothing's changed in that respect. Even if you enter via Ireland you'd still have to provide your passport at points of entry there. I don't have any experience of life before Schengen in Europe when using public transport but I do know that on board immigration checks were carried out on cross border trains. Often lasting longer than 30 paltry minutes.
Anyway, happy Saint Ebbas day!
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Old August 25th, 2011, 12:19 PM   #477
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You still need to allow time on your journey to the terminal.
Sure you do. I never claimed otherwise. But there is a difference between needing to only allow for the journey to the terminal and needing to allow for the journey to the terminal and additionally needing to allow for the check in deadline.
Seeing that there is a difference here should not be so hard.

With a train that leaves at 10:00 I know that I have to be past it's door at 9:59:59 (ok, 9:59:00 in some countries) which means that being at the station at 9:50 is sufficient. Add 30 minutes check in and suddenly I have to be at the terminal 30 minutes earlier. That means getting there at 9:20. That means leaving home half an hour earlier. That means being en route to my destination half an hour longer.

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See my first point. And it isn't the de-facto departure time for passengers. If a plane was due to leave LHR for CDG at 10:00 would you assume that it was leaving at 09:15 as you're requested to check-in a minimum of 45 minutes from the scheduled departure time? Of course you wouldn't. As would 99.99999999% of the worlds population
When I was living in the Netherlands I had to be in London quite regularly. I always flew via Rotterdam, because there the check-in time was only 15 minutes, allowing me to stay in bed about half an hour longer. About all peopel travelling from the Netherlands to London on business know this advantage that Rotterdam offers, and appreciate it...

Trains are slower than planes. They make up some of their disadvantage by having a more flexible regime, by having less extra "time overhead" in the form of check in times, boarding procedures etc.
That is why a four hour train ride can compete with a 1 1/2 hour flight.
By adopting check in times and security checks Eurostar is foregoing some of the advantage trains offer over planes. And that is costing Eurostar customers and revenue. They can ofcourse try to make the trains even faster, but I suggest that removing some of the time overhead would be a smarter and cheaper move. That's all I'm saying.


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You have continuously complained about having to check-in for trains originating in, or leaving from, the UK throughout the Railway section. Something that, god forbid, wouldn't be in place if we (the UK) were part of Schengen.
You are here grossly misrepresenting my argument. What I am talking about is getting rid of the security theatre (because it is costly and useless) and the requirement to "check in", something all other high speed trains in Europe seem to be able to operate perfectly without.

I dare you to find a post where I claimed that the UK must joing Schengen...

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I don't have any experience of life before Schengen in Europe when using public transport but I do know that on board immigration checks were carried out on cross border trains. Often lasting longer than 30 paltry minutes.
But passport checks were mostly done while the train was moving, so from the point of view of the passenger no time was lost. Where they were performed at the endpoints they only needed a few minutes. I have quite a bit of experience there as I moved to Switzerland before it joined Schengen. Having to go through passport control never kept me from making 10 minute connections in Basel.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 12:42 PM   #478
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You are here grossly misrepresenting my argument. What I am talking about is getting rid of the security theatre (because it is costly and useless) and the requirement to "check in", something all other high speed trains in Europe seem to be able to operate perfectly without.

I dare you to find a post where I claimed that the UK must joing Schengen...
It might be costly but it is necessary. And it certainly isn't theatre. We need them in place to stop undesirables from entering the country. If this was done correctly by the European countries who have borders with non EU members then there wouldn't be a need. Until then however, we will continue to have them.

And I didn't say you have. Although it is blatently obvious you wish this to happen.

Oh and if 30 extra minutes in bed is so important........ If the rail companies can cut 30 minutes travel time from terminal to terminal then that is a real saving on travel time. Until then there is no real saving.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 02:43 PM   #479
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Times have changed. There are hundreds of people camping precariously in Calais taking all sorts of chances to get hidden in trucks going to England via Euroshuttle of, mostly, the ferry. They will hide above the axle, they will hide on the cargo compartment, sometimes dangerously. There is a mini-army of Home Office guards there to screen out these people.

Now imagine a situation in whcih somebody boards an Eurostar bound to London, without a ticket, with a handful of companions, and, when checked on-board for documents, decide to hide in the bathroom, become aggressive or, worse, without the x-ray decide to take some hostages demanding train doors to be opened or else they will kill a passenger.

There is a flood of unwanted people to UK. It would be better if the countries on Schengen borders took care and detained these people in the Mediterranean or in Greek, Polish, Romanian borders, preventing them from entering EU first place. But since that is not happening, UK must take precautions to avoid people reaching Great Britain Isle.
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Old August 25th, 2011, 03:54 PM   #480
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It might be costly but it is necessary. And it certainly isn't theatre. We need them in place to stop undesirables from entering the country. If this was done correctly by the European countries who have borders with non EU members then there wouldn't be a need. Until then however, we will continue to have them.
The security theatre isn't about keeping undesireables out of the country. It's about pretending to do something against terrorism.
Mandatory check in, scanning luggage and immigration controls are all different things.

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And I didn't say you have. Although it is blatently obvious you wish this to happen.
I do not wish for the UK to koin Schengen. I would even like to see the UK leave the European Union. (I would like to see every country leave the European Union)

However, I do wish for the freedoms we used to have to return. It was once possible to travel by train all over Europe without carrying a passport. That was before the EU though... Long before my time even.

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Oh and if 30 extra minutes in bed is so important........ If the rail companies can cut 30 minutes travel time from terminal to terminal then that is a real saving on travel time. Until then there is no real saving.
You must have a strange definition of "real". Are you familiar with basic mathematics?
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