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Old January 13th, 2012, 06:56 PM   #601
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There is a new version...
Thanks. Would you be so kind to provide a link to one?
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Old January 15th, 2012, 11:29 PM   #602
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Paris, Gare de Lyon railway terminal, renovation and extention of the Hall 2.












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Old January 30th, 2012, 05:58 AM   #603
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Hey folks. Question. Why isn't there more political will to accomplish the Torino-Lyon link sooner rather than later? Isn't that a major business route (i.e, Paris-Milan)?

Also, would it be quicker to use the new Gothard base tunnel (when it opens) and route the Milan train through Basel and then to Paris?
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Old January 30th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #604
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Hey folks. Question. Why isn't there more political will to accomplish the Torino-Lyon link sooner rather than later? Isn't that a major business route (i.e, Paris-Milan)?

Also, would it be quicker to use the new Gothard base tunnel (when it opens) and route the Milan train through Basel and then to Paris?
The traditional route for Paris - Italy is actually via the Simplon. Look at a map, you'll see that Paris - Dijon - Lausanne is more or less a straight line aimed at Milano. After that it gets a bit more complicated because of the mountains. The Simplon tunnel was build with French money for a reason...

Gotthard is a bit out of the way. Once the new tunnel is open Paris - Gotthard - Milano could be done in 7h30 too, but it would be a bit pointless to go that far out of the way. You can actually already do Paris - Basel - Simplon - Milano in 7h15.

Currently a Paris - Lausanne - Milano train could do it in 7 hours, but no such train exists. The current TGVs via Lyon - Torino do it in 7h5, but could do it in 6h20 if they took the new line from Torino to Milano. All that is needed for that is new trains. Improvements in railway lines can gradually reduce the times even further, so I think that the Gottard will never be a viable option for Paris - Milano.
The new Mont Cenis base tunnel will eventually be built. In Italy the political will to throw money at big construction companies is never in short supply, even if the political will to run international trains is.
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Old January 30th, 2012, 03:02 PM   #605
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The Lyon-Turin (also known as Fréjus, or Mont Cenis) base tunnel is as expensive as the Gotthard base tunnel (and even more considering access lines), but with a (much) lower predicted traffic (both passengers and freight).

Paris-Milano via the Fréjus would however be quicker than both the Gotthard and Simplon routes.
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Old January 30th, 2012, 03:44 PM   #606
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Especially given the unwilligness of the Swiss to convert, improve or built the Chiasso-Luzern into a high-speed rail link.
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Old January 30th, 2012, 04:02 PM   #607
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Especially given the unwilligness of the Swiss to convert, improve or built the Chiasso-Luzern into a high-speed rail link.
You are free to offer the Swiss money to do it for you, you know.

As long as the Swiss do it with their own money however they will spend it in a way that maximizes the return on their investment, as anyone not blinded by a crazy agenda can usually appreciate...
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Old January 30th, 2012, 04:05 PM   #608
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Thank God, the French and especially the Italian have a more build-first, use-later mentality.
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Old January 30th, 2012, 05:48 PM   #609
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I was sure about your views. The more a rail project costs and the less it is useful, the more excuses you can find about "money wasted on useless railways"
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Old January 30th, 2012, 07:12 PM   #610
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No, I care more about operating losses than construction, one-off costs.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 01:28 AM   #611
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Does anybody know if they'll be running direct Paris-Munich trains when the new link to Strasbourg is completed?
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Old January 31st, 2012, 01:37 AM   #612
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Does anybody know if they'll be running direct Paris-Munich trains when the new link to Strasbourg is completed?
There already is a daily TGV Paris-Stuttgart-Munich.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 01:54 AM   #613
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Does anybody know if they'll be running direct Paris-Munich trains when the new link to Strasbourg is completed?
Pretty sure there'll be a TGV running to Munich once Stuttgart 21 and all the surrounding constructions are finished.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 07:26 AM   #614
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No, I care more about operating losses than construction, one-off costs.
Construction is not a one-off cost. If you think so you have a very low grasp of economics.
If you buy a car do you care about the price of the car, or do you buy the most expensive one available, regardless of how much debt you have to sadlle yourself up with? Or do you look for something that fits your needs that you can afford?

You are a strange fellow. You claim to be in favor of minimal government intervention in the economy. Usually people who hold such an opinion are also in favor of fiscal restraint. However, you seem to be of the opinion that governments should act as if money grows on trees, and their prime function is throwing as much of it as possible at private companies to build fancy infrastructure, regardless of its utility.
That is quite a head you must have that two ideas so add odds with each other live in it together.

No country builds railways on a "build first, see if someone uses it later" basis. Except maybe for Greece. There they even built railways knowing in advance that no-one will use them. See where that got them.
In France they do carefully research the utility of a project before going ahead. Make no mistake there. And with the new PPP model you can be even more sure that before the building starts a careful assessment of future traffic will be made, otherwise it is impossible for the private investors to know if they are making a good investment. As the works are about to start on the extensions of the LGV Atlantique it is already know what trains will run on it and how often.

I assume you have no problem with a private company spending it's money in accordance with the interest of its shareholders. Why then are you so resistant to the idea of a government spending its money in accordance with the interests of the taxpayers? Do you really expect me to vote in a government that does not use _my_ taxes wisely?

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Old January 31st, 2012, 02:04 PM   #615
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I was sure about your views. The more a rail project costs and the less it is useful, the more excuses you can find about "money wasted on useless railways"
As a French, I can give an example which, imho, should close your money&stuff contest: the Channel Tunnel.... = a bloody cost (not to mention the (multiple) quasi-bankruptcies of the "EuroTunnel" company), BUT, all in all, (especially as seen from today) , it was quite an essential project, don't you think guys ??

But not really financially viable.. still even today !
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Old January 31st, 2012, 02:22 PM   #616
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As a French, I can give an example which, imho, should close your money&stuff contest: the Channel Tunnel.... = a bloody cost (not to mention the (multiple) quasi-bankruptcies of the "EuroTunnel" company), BUT, all in all, (especially as seen from today) , it was quite an essential project, don't you think guys ??
When it was proposed the Channel tunnel was deemed a potentially profitable enterprise, or private investors would not have invested in it.
However the tunnel has since then been handicapped by regulations. There were plans to run trains from other UK towns to Paris, and from other European towns to the UK. There was a plan for a night train. However these plans all were hampered to one extent or another by rules that forbade cabotage, and the requirement of pre boarding checks on all passengers.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 02:24 PM   #617
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I'm not objecting the Fréjus Base Tunnel usefulness, but its cost-benefits ratio, which is quite poor.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 03:31 PM   #618
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When it was proposed the Channel tunnel was deemed a potentially profitable enterprise, or private investors would not have invested in it.
However the tunnel has since then been handicapped by regulations. There were plans to run trains from other UK towns to Paris, and from other European towns to the UK. There was a plan for a night train. However these plans all were hampered to one extent or another by rules that forbade cabotage, and the requirement of pre boarding checks on all passengers.
It is only fair that cabotage in UK is forbidden if British operators can't run their own trains to places in France other than Paris and carry intra-French traffic.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 04:55 PM   #619
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It is only fair that cabotage in UK is forbidden if British operators can't run their own trains to places in France other than Paris and carry intra-French traffic.
I know. But this "unfairness" is not the only problem. A train where you have to subject yourself to a check-in procedure and pre boarding check half an hour before departure will never be able to compete with a train where this inconvenience is not inflicted upon you.

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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:04 PM   #620
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I know. But this "unfariness" is not the only problem. A train where you have to subject yourself to a check-in procedure and pre boarding check half an hour before departure will never be able to compete with a train where this inconvenience is not inflicted upon you.
Here we go again:

- UK is not part of Schegen

- Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side

- without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now

-due to UK laws, it is much more difficult to deport and expell would-be illegal immigrants once they set foot in UK territory and claim asylum, especially if they have children. They would have to work out some legislation to make St. Pancras an "international area" with detention facilities and a much larger security apparatus to process bogus asylum claims. E.g., St. Pacras would become like an International Airport for legislation purposes (which brings taxation matters as well).

We didn't even spoke of the need to have a passenger manifest in the Chunnel with an exact list of names and count of passengers travelling. That is for safety, to identify potential terrorists, keept track of justice evaders crossing to/from Mainland etc.

The French don't care much, though, they interview people in St. Pancras in a mere few seconds whereas the British officers stationed in Gare du Nord sometimes do more thorough interviews.

Check-in procedures are also good to control luggage on the x-ray, making the Chunnel less attractive for drug traffic!
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