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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:06 PM   #621
parcdesprinces
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Vatican City & Andorra (+ Monaco who is a special case about that) are not part of Schengen either... I mean, and so ?


(no comment about your other "points".. )

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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:12 PM   #622
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
- UK is not part of Schegen
- Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side
- without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now
-due to UK laws, it is much more difficult to deport and expell would-be illegal immigrants once they set foot in UK territory and claim asylum, especially if they have children. They would have to work out some legislation to make St. Pancras an "international area" with detention facilities and a much larger security apparatus to process bogus asylum claims.
Maybe it's time you and other get a bit less paranoid about migration. Why should capital and goods be able to move freely, but people not?

But can you explain why the problems you describe above were never a problem on continental European border crossing trains, even in times when the borders between eg. Germany and France were even more thightly policed thant the border between the UK and France is now.

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We didn't even spoke of the need to have a passenger manifest in the Chunnel with an exact list of names and count of passengers travelling.
Why do you need that? Why is it not required of the other trains going through the tunnel?
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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:15 PM   #623
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
But can you explain why the problems you describe above were never a problem on continental European border crossing trains, even in times when the borders between eg. Germany and France were even more thightly policed thant the border between the UK and France is now.
I guess the French stopped fussing about the German border since the Maginot line lol.

Seriously, I bet the border was loose, already, in the 1960s.

And the non-European immigration threat to Europe was minimal by then.

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Why do you need that? Why is it not required of the other trains going through the tunnel?
The shuttle has controls and manifests on the vehicles entering the chunnel, which allow some matching should a fata accident happen there.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:39 PM   #624
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The shuttle has controls and manifests on the vehicles entering the chunnel, which allow some matching should a fata accident happen there.
But no passenger lists. And when the Gotthard opens trains running through that tunnel won't have manifests either. Apparently not everyone is that paranoid.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:46 PM   #625
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Jean Nouvel to renovate train hub in heart of Paris
By Bryan Pirolli | January 23, 2012



PARIS – The historic train station, Gare d’Austerlitz, is on board to be renovated by Jean Nouvel starting this year. The 600 million euro project, designed to upgrade the station and its surroundings, is projected to continue through 2020.

The Gare d’Austerlitz is one of Paris’s six main train stations. Originally built in 1840, it serves two metro lines, one Paris regional rail, and multiple national trains to the southwest of France. With 23 million passengers per year, the SNCF, France’s railway company, hopes that the new train station will not only facilitate transportation via new high speed lines, but also rejuvenate the neighborhood.

Christian Brézet, director of the project spearheaded by the Gares & Connexions, a branch of SNCF in charge of developing 3000 French stations, shared details with SmartPlanet. During the renovations, traffic will continue across the railways. Buildings dating to the 1860s, classified as historical monuments since 1997, will be preserved and integrated into the new design, conceived by architects Jean Nouvel and Jean-Marie Duthilleul. For example, 200 million euros will be dedicated to renovating the glass roof in the grand hall where hot air balloons were manufactured during the 1870 siege of Paris.

The current train station is not the easiest to navigate. Brézet said that a large part of the renovation will be opening up and easing transportation within the station itself. “The renovation of the station will integrate the development of a system that will increase travelers’ comfort and also aid in finding their way in the station,” he said. Improved access to train platforms, including new escalators and hallways, should make navigating the often confusing station easier.

Plans also include reorganize the courtyards, creating a grand staircase towards the river, easing access to the adjacent hospital and offering better roads for light traffic including taxis, bikes, and pedestrians. Construction crews will also destroy several SNCF buildings currently on the site in favor of new office buildings and green spaces.

More than just easing transportation, Nouvel and his team hope to rejuvenate the neighborhood around the train station, which is located on the bank of the Seine. The adjacent Jardin des Plantes and Natural History Museum are important landmarks but few people are drawn to the streets around the Gare d’Austerlitz. The renovation will eventually draw new stores, cafés, and businesses into the neighborhood. “One of the principal objectives of the renovations is based on the idea of creating an Austerlitz quarter, a train station quarter,” Brézet said.

While the stairway towards Avenue Pierre-Mendès France should be constructed as soon as 2013, many plans for the new station remain long-term. Gare d’Austerlitz will welcome a new high speed TGV train to Lyon by 2025, making it an even more important transport hub. Brézet said that SNCF is hoping for 50 million travelers per year by 2030, thanks in part to 15,000 more suburban trains.

Certain plans are still undefined, but Brézet said that as part of the Grand Paris urban expansion project, the Gare d’Austerlitz could be a connection point for the new line linking the airport at Orly. “Different propositions are being studied and discussed by the public to consider different ways to connect with the Massy-Orly line, creating a Parisian antenna for this new network,” he said.
http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/glob...-of-paris/3153
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Old January 31st, 2012, 05:46 PM   #626
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I guess the French stopped fussing about the German border since the Maginot line lol.
Actually in the 19th century you could cross from Germany in to France without even a passport. You also didn't need a passport to enter the UK. And a major cause of that were the railways...
Border ID controls were most common between the world wars.
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Old January 31st, 2012, 06:15 PM   #627
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del

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Old February 2nd, 2012, 10:44 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

- Calais-Dover is THE major hotspot for illegal attempted crossings in Western Europe. Just look at the shantytowns stateless people and those who refuse to identify themselves form in the French side

Maybe be should talk about it in the international border thread but...

Andorra-Spain has one road with no kind of control. It is thrue that, because mountains, it is a Spanish Village (Os de Civis) that must cross the Andorran territory to go anywhere (or crossing high mountains). As we know, Andorra is a free tax country.
There are no customs controls on the border nor police cars around it. Even there is not a sign to point when you are crossing the border. As well as main border to Spain as well as border to France are strongly controlled, this one is just... not controlled. Borders are controlled because smuggling. France and Spain know how many freight arrive to Andorra and can check how many smuggling they are having. About people... anyone who enters in the country, sometime he will leave..... (and it is very easy to have controlled a person there)

But there is a more hotspot border in Schengen territory: Ceuta border.

There are two cities in the norht of Africa which are part of European Union, Schengen treaty, use Euro, etc, etc...

One of them, Ceuta, is only 14 km away from Europe.

Should you enter there, you can get a ferry to Europe with no custom control and go anywhere


There were too many illegal little ships but the coast is so controlled that most of them are returned.
But should someone cross the border on African continent, it is impossible to check later (yeah, you can ask for passport to any citizen in the street, just that)
Maybe Canary islands have been receiving more illegal inmigration because they are only 97 km away from Southern Morocco and Western Sahara... and not so far from Mauritania.
Moroccan police works to catch illegal inmigration but... if someone wants to go from central Africa to Europe, it could be easy with a ship from Mauritania to Canary Islands and later a plane to anywhere in Europe with no passport control........


This is a google map about the Ceuta fence

http://maps.google.es/maps?q=ceuta&h...Ceuta&t=h&z=19

and two pics






Quote:
- without pre-check of valid documents and, where applicable, visas, a hostage-like situation in which disgruntled would-be immigrants pull a knife or a gun and demand the train to stop and open doors or else they'd kill passengers becomes more likely than now
Entering with any weapon in other country can make you be arrested, not only apply in UK.

There are trains crossing all Europe... and they will find how to check you do not have weapons.


In Spain there are scanners in most stations and they are thinking how to erase them.
But... in my city I know the case of a person who was going to get a regional train (not a long distance high speed train), had to cross the scanner and they detected it was a weapon... Yeah, it was a weapon who was carried to give another person for a competition (an official shooting competition and was asked to carry another weapon for reserve).

He was arrested because he hasn't licence to carry weapons (it was the person who was going to participate in the competition the only person allowed to carry them).


And there are direct trains to Portugal, France, Switzerland and Italy... and no so strong controls.
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Old February 2nd, 2012, 11:35 AM   #629
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In Spain there are scanners in most stations and they are thinking how to erase them.
These scanners are pretty much useless and a nuiseance to boot.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 11:00 AM   #630
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+1
everybody hate them. They are not at all stations and I can show how they are not effective.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 12:01 PM   #631
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Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?
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Old February 5th, 2012, 01:30 PM   #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?
That's just nonsense, in Spain only major train stations have scanners, and only for long distance and few regional trains... If you want to bring something ilegal to a train just get on a smaller station that doesn't have any kind of control.
Also, rail transport should NEVER get any close to the over exagerated "safety" measures instated on airports, one of the biggest advantages of a train is that you can get to the station few minutes before departure, also that you can be helped by family or friends to get in.

Trains HAVE to be different from air transport, and keep things that have been working for almost two centuries now.
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Old February 5th, 2012, 07:06 PM   #633
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very beautiful
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Old February 6th, 2012, 12:10 AM   #634
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.
London St. Pancras would lke you to think differently on that matter...

But honestly, where do these opinions stem from? It's not as if on a platform, a train's gonna come hurtling off the tracks and take everyone out like skittles, nor is it likely that some fanatical will run in with a bomb and ruin everyone's day that way either.
(Well it is possible, but the chances? Ridiculously small, with that kind of logic, you amy as well constantly wrap everything in your house in safety wrap incase it falls off a shelf and injures you.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 12:32 AM   #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon

London St. Pancras would lke you to think differently on that matter...
There is no problem having a shoppig area within a station. Airports do have that as well. I just think platforms should r segregated with checkin/scanning facilities and platform screen doors. The latter is of utmost importance. Even if screening is not possible, putting fare gates is a first step.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Scanners are important to give a clear segregation impression on the travel experience. A passenger shouldn't thinkg a train platform is like a walk in the park. It is actually a dangerous places (that should be on long-term sealed with platform screen doors anyway), where heigthened attention should be paid.

When I'm in an aiport, I'm always attentive of strange movements, unnatended packages, etc. If I ever stop one unattended package (happened just once so far), I'll immediatelly back away from the place and notify a policeman/security officer ASAP.

Why should it be any different on a train station? As I said, it is not a leisure place, it is a transportation structure.

Scanning can also prevent non-passenger from getting close to the platform. People who are not travelling have no business whatsoever getting close to a train. Nobody does that in an airport (only on air shows), why should it be different for trains?
Do you really want travel to be as disagreeable and inconvenient as possible?

Why do I have the impression that you ware basically against everything that has the potential of making life worth living?
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Old February 6th, 2012, 02:26 PM   #637
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Originally Posted by K_

Do you really want travel to be as disagreeable and inconvenient as possible?

Why do I have the impression that you ware basically against everything that has the potential of making life worth living?
It is just about thwarting terrorists.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 03:44 PM   #638
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It is just about thwarting terrorists.
No it is not.
The security regime imposed on airline travelers is a net cost to those travelers as it does not buy us any additional security. It has shown again and again as being ineffective at thwarting terrorists. Anything that only means that terrorists have to change tactics or targets is basically useless.

Producing a good or service that has a high cost but no value is something that goes completely counter to the free market ideology you normally defend, which makes it strange that you keep proposing it.

What really "thwarts" terrorism is old fashioned police work and intelligence, and most importantly, refusing to let them dictate how we go by our daily business. Refusing to be terrorized, in other words.

And stop being worried about terrorism. The only thing you need to know about terrorism is that it is so vanishingly rare that you are more likely to die in an accident involving your dish washer than in a terrorist attack.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #639
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is just about thwarting terrorists.
What kind of purpose would you expect from platform doors in the context
of terrorism prevention ?

As far as I know, platform doors are used for two purposes :

- suicide prevention
- "track protection" where driverless trains are used

The first objective works reasonably well on lines that are otherwise entirely
and effectively sealed, that is, only for underground/subway/tube lines.
For classical railways lines that run mainly "in the open" and are not sealable,
there is no interest in installing platform doors since suicidal people will find
umpteen other spots along the line to do away with themselves if they so
wish.

Installations in conjunction with driverless trains is even more debatable,
I think. It's supposed to be there to prevent people from wandering or
falling on the track, because a driverless train would fail to notice the
obstacle. But with human-driven trains, it's almost impossible to stop
in time anyway...

None of those objectives are related to terrorism and I fail to understand
what platform doors could achieve in terms of terrorism prevention.
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Old February 6th, 2012, 04:28 PM   #640
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Don't be silly. Everything is about terrorists, terrorism, and stopping terrorism. Suburbanist, as you can tell, is positively terrified.

All trains should be mounted with a GAU-8/A Avenger 30mm on the nose, remotely controlled by a CIA operative in front of a PC in Utah, and all potential threats should be met with a strafing all the way along the platform. That'll show 'em.

Not even the terrorists are too stupid to work out that trains can be attacked outside the stations. Suburbanist....hmmm.
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