daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old July 24th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #21
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

The UK is lacking lane discipline. Even though matrix signs try to encourage drivers to keep left unless overtaking or warning drivers not to hog the middle lane, people will still choose any lane they want, causing congestion as it tempers the free flow.

Germans used to drive fast but disciplined, but these days they will sit on middle of even outside lanes for no apparent reason. A99 around Munich is a fine example. They used to curse the Dutch for have no lane discipline, but the Dutch have gone a lot better now, and intent to use outside lanes for overtaking only. Hogging overtaking lanes is punishable in the Netherlands, and the police to enforce this simple regulation. Austria is getting a little better, still too many middle lane drivers on the A1 though. The Swiss do whatever they want, the Danish and Swedes are not all that disciplined in keeping right unless overtaking. The Belgians seem to get it right, but the Italians are a nightmare. Even the slowest of drivers will keep in the middle lane. Hogging the outside lane in Italy can be a bit of a challenge, as in no time you will have a very angrily flashing and tailgathing Alfa Romeo on your ass. Eastern-European drivers? Don't even go there, they don't have a clue!

I find the French (yes the French!!!!) the most disciplined drivers in Europe. Chirac has cracked down heavily on dangerous driving, and it worked! Around Paris, Lille and other big cities there are plenty of bad drivers to be found in the wrong lane, but the A6 for example between Dijon and Lyon is a pleasure to drive on. Even when it's busy: Three lanes of motorway, and outside lanes are mainly used for overtaking only!

In Spain the mentality in the Barcelona area: Right-hand lane is for trucks only. Inland it's a bit better but...



The Portuguese are brilliant! Even the fastest of drivers will jump on crawler lanes when there is no traffic!

This is me talking out of my own experience, cruising in my van all over Europe.

Last edited by Road_UK; July 24th, 2011 at 12:16 PM. Reason: Forgot to mention something.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old July 24th, 2011, 01:18 PM   #22
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 893

Thats true, Portuguese drivers are bad, but lane discipline in Portugal is excellent.

The UK is pretty much the opposite of that
DanielFigFoz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 01:59 PM   #23
Ron2K
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,048
Likes (Received): 17

We've got the "keep left, pass right" rule (don't forget that we drive on the left down here!), but lane discipline is rather poor. Durban drivers are particularly bad at this, in my experience - and let's rather not mention the overly aggressive folk in Johannesburg. Outside of urban areas though, lane discipline is a lot better.

Also, on steep inclines, heavy vehicles will be directed to remain in the left-hand lane, and everything else will use other lanes. On the Town Hill descent on the N3 into Pietermaritzburg, the left-hand lane is reserved for heavy vehicles only, and cars will use the remaining two lanes. There's many other areas that are like that.

Another thing; it's only the right-hand lane that is the overtaking lane. On a 3-lane carriageway, you'll find nearly no-one in the left-lane, unless it's a heavy vehicle or traffic about to take the exit coming up - most drivers will be in the centre lane or overtaking (or sadly, hogging!) in the right lane.
Ron2K no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 06:47 PM   #24
DanielFigFoz
Registered User
 
DanielFigFoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 4,428
Likes (Received): 893

Yes, drivers in the UK are better with lane discipline in rural areas
DanielFigFoz no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 09:08 PM   #25
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

True. For some strange reason, people are more likely to keep left north of Preston on the M6 where there is no traffic.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 09:20 PM   #26
Ron2K
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 1,048
Likes (Received): 17

Here's the lane restriction signage on Town Hill that I mentioned earlier:



It gets interesting halfway down, when the cars have to cut across the truck lane to get to the Peter Brown exit:


Last edited by Ron2K; July 24th, 2011 at 09:26 PM.
Ron2K no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 10:13 PM   #27
Triple C
Registered User
 
Triple C's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Antalya
Posts: 5,268
Likes (Received): 1724

Never seen on TR but around Tunnels;
image hosted on flickr
__________________
ek$i | Flickr | last.fm | Twitter
Concerts | Cappadocia | Eskişehir | İzmir '09 | İstanbul
In some time: Ankara, Antalya, Bandırma, Çanakkale
Triple C no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 11:25 PM   #28
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Roads seems to be of excellent quality in SA...

Is it likely that they will enforce lane discipline anytime soon? You got two mother countries: The UK didn't get it right, the Netherlands did.. ;-) Perhaps the Afrikaaner should start driving on the right-hand sight of the road, and let the English speakers keep to the left ;-)

New form of Apartheid...
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 11:39 PM   #29
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3707

In you experience, the British has the worst lane discipline in all of Europe?
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 24th, 2011, 11:44 PM   #30
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
In you experience, the British has the worst lane discipline in all of Europe?
No, not the worst. But definitely one of the worst. The worst is probably Poland in my experience. Denmark and Switzerland fall in the same category as Britain. Italy is worse. That is in my own personal experience.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2011, 02:30 AM   #31
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,532
Likes (Received): 21239

One cause that is often ignored in the lane discipline problem is that, in 2x2 highways that are busy, lane discipline would be hard to achieve anyway.

Let me give my example: I ALWAYS drive at the post speed limits (lower in cases of extreme rain, snow and, of course, slow traffic). I will stick to the right lane in 2x2 highways (left in UK/OZ). However, if a road is sufficiently busy with heavy traffic, and almost certainly on hilly terrains wit grades >2%, the external (right) lane will be moving below the allowed speed. Then, on the internal (left) lane, you will have all sort of faster traffic, including overspeeders.

If you yield to overspeeders, however, in busy highways that might mean you are stuck and bound to drive long stretches below the posted speed limit, boxed between trucks, vans and slow moving cars, before you get a gap to overtake more of them.

In such situations, usually defined as service level class D on the FHWA highway design manual, I find myself compelled to drive long sectors on the internal (left) lane, as changing lanes becomes difficult because of heavy, but not slow, traffic. Then, two situations might happen if the right (external) lane is moving considerably (10kmh or more) lower than posted speed limit:

1) The "fast" traffic is moving close to the speed limit: I'm just one more car in the fast lane

2) The "fast" traffic is moving considerably faster than the speed limit: I'll be backing up a lot of cars until there is a sufficient large gap on the left lane that allows me to yield to overspeeders without myself having to back down from the posted speed limit for anything longer than a few seconds.

I have never been involved in anything but a mild traffic accident without any injuries and only minor damage to the cars. I drive responsibly and will stay on the right lane if I can drive there at the posted limit, but I feel somehow entitled to drive at the post speed limit on the "fast" lane if moving to the right lane would oblige me to drive for long sectors below 5-8 km/h the posted limit. Even if the post limit is unreasonably low - that is a road authority problem, not mine.

This is why I like 3-lane highways so much: they allow "normal" speed traffic to stick it to the central lane, without being bothered by either slow-moving trucks on the right or people overtaking you on the left lane.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 25th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #32
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,766

As I explained in another thread, in Spain there is a "driving licence by points".
Some traffic violation can decrease points as well as three years with no violations increase points.
Should you get to zero, you loose your licence and you must request a new one with all tramits (driving without it can get you to jail).

About keeping lane... in the electronic pannels there are over roads and motorways, they use them for punctual information and if no specific information, general things about "do not run" or something like that.


And... there was one month when ALL pannels had some message about "driving on the left except for overtaking = "-2 points" "

Can it be clearer????????
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2011, 08:34 PM   #33
nerdly_dood
Possibly Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 951
Likes (Received): 42

Never heard of such a system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Does a different speed limit for trucks apply in the USA? Or can they drive the same speed as cars?
In Virginia the speed limit is the same for all types of vehicles.
nerdly_dood no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2011, 11:33 PM   #34
Rebasepoiss
Registered User
 
Rebasepoiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 5,818
Likes (Received): 1819

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
No, not the worst. But definitely one of the worst. The worst is probably Poland in my experience. Denmark and Switzerland fall in the same category as Britain. Italy is worse. That is in my own personal experience.
I'd blame this on the poor network of motorways in Poland until recently. Changing driving culture takes time.
Rebasepoiss no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2011, 11:55 PM   #35
zaphod
PRESIDENT OF SPACE
 
zaphod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,176
Likes (Received): 1674

I agree with Suburbanist on a lot of points.

Keep your lane makes a lot of sense to me if the goal is not so much to maximize speeds but to use highway capacity more efficiently. If there is a lot of congestion on a highway, why should there be so much empty space in the left lane just so a minority of traffic can go faster?

Last edited by zaphod; July 27th, 2011 at 12:26 AM.
zaphod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 26th, 2011, 11:56 PM   #36
lpioe
Registered User
 
lpioe's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,141
Likes (Received): 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
No, not the worst. But definitely one of the worst. The worst is probably Poland in my experience. Denmark and Switzerland fall in the same category as Britain. Italy is worse. That is in my own personal experience.
Don't think lane discipline is that bad in Switzerland. It's true that on 3-lane motorways many people drive on the middle lane and leave the right lane to trucks. But since there are very few 3-lane motorways in Switzerland it's not a big problem. On 2x2 highways the vast majority follows the "keep right, pass left" rule as far as I can tell.
__________________




3ds Max Script to create stadium stands for given c-values


my stadium designs (all WIP / unfinished...)

1 - 2 - 3 - 4

lpioe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 27th, 2011, 12:22 AM   #37
Spikespiegel
Used Registrant
 
Spikespiegel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Copenhagen
Posts: 411
Likes (Received): 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by lpioe View Post
Don't think lane discipline is that bad in Switzerland. It's true that on 3-lane motorways many people drive on the middle lane and leave the right lane to trucks. But since there are very few 3-lane motorways in Switzerland it's not a big problem. On 2x2 highways the vast majority follows the "keep right, pass left" rule as far as I can tell.
I don't feel like lane discipline is that bad in Denmark either. We have some middle-lane hoggers in E47, but I believe those are probably just people not familiar with motorways with more than four lanes, as these are not found on many Danish motorways besides E47/E20. One problem I think we DO have are people who doesn't know the difference between lane merging and lane changing rules.

For example, I was driving along E20 this monday with 110 kph and cruise activated, and three times, the same car pulled out in front of me while I was trying to overtake lorries, so I had to use the brakes. 5 minutes up the road was some lost goods in the overtaking lane, so the lane was closed down. I saw the "lane closed" signs from afar, and stayed in the right lane as most of the other traffic did. mere meters before the left lane closed, the beforementioned car pulled up besides me, put it's turnsignals on and started pulling into my lane as I was next to it. He had to eventually stop changing lanes, and let me pass, while he gave me the finger.
A few km up the road I came to a halt at the Great Belt toll booths. The guy pulled up next to me, and started yelling if I didn't know the "merging rules".
This stunned me a bit, as there were no "merge" signs, but just a "change lane" sign, we were to follow the lane changing rules, which gave me the right of way always.

Even if we were following the lane merge rules, I would have the right of way as I was ahead of him when the merge was supposed to happen.


Much too often I experience stuff like this in Denmark, people who doesn't know the rules for changing and merging lanes
Spikespiegel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 28th, 2011, 08:19 AM   #38
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,766

As in several countries, driving licence has "points". Twelve, exactly.

Having a penalty could (or maybe nothing) decrease points... and you have ten or less.
Keeping three years without traffic penalties increase two points your licence, up to 15 points (it started in 2006, in 2009 I got two points and next year I expect to arrive up to 15 if no problem).

Do not respecting traffic signals, speed limits, etc... can be punished with an economic fine and... a decrease of your "points".

If you arrive to zero point, your driving licence get expired absolutely and have to ask a new one with all exams and tramitations (and not cheap!!!).

In a motorway, driving always in the left lane is forbidden. You may drive on the right one and using the left one for overtaken. Of course if congestion or dense traffic a lot of cars will get the left lane, but if no traffic, there are someones which gets the left lane in any case.

This is forbidden. No special traffic on motorway = mandatory to drive on the right. And as I said, it can be punished.

Electronic information on roads an motorways informs about incidences on traffic or something special. If nothing to inform, the gave special message (do not run, risk of fire, etc...)

There was one month when they showed always the message "Drive on the right lane. Driving in the left lane could decrease 2 points".

And very easy to understand... and apply!!!!!
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 29th, 2011, 12:51 PM   #39
piotr71
Registered User
 
piotr71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Beskidy
Posts: 4,300

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
The UK is lacking lane discipline. Even though matrix signs try to encourage drivers to keep left unless overtaking or warning drivers not to hog the middle lane, people will still choose any lane they want, causing congestion as it tempers the free flow.

Germans used to drive fast but disciplined, but these days they will sit on middle of even outside lanes for no apparent reason. A99 around Munich is a fine example. They used to curse the Dutch for have no lane discipline, but the Dutch have gone a lot better now, and intent to use outside lanes for overtaking only. Hogging overtaking lanes is punishable in the Netherlands, and the police to enforce this simple regulation. Austria is getting a little better, still too many middle lane drivers on the A1 though. The Swiss do whatever they want, the Danish and Swedes are not all that disciplined in keeping right unless overtaking. The Belgians seem to get it right, but the Italians are a nightmare. Even the slowest of drivers will keep in the middle lane. Hogging the outside lane in Italy can be a bit of a challenge, as in no time you will have a very angrily flashing and tailgathing Alfa Romeo on your ass. Eastern-European drivers? Don't even go there, they don't have a clue!

I find the French (yes the French!!!!) the most disciplined drivers in Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Road_UK View Post
No, not the worst. But definitely one of the worst. The worst is probably Poland in my experience. Denmark and Switzerland fall in the same category as Britain. Italy is worse. That is in my own personal experience.
In most cases I agree with you, particulary about French and Belgians. They are just brilliant and in my opinion best disciplined drivers in Europe (don't know Portugal though)

However, I don't find Polish drivers that bad. Yes, they (we*) drive on left lane for no obvious reason but only until someone intends to overtake us, then we pull over immediately. This is the manouvre British drivers don't know. They just don't care about others and obstruct "faster" lanes as long as they want. They use lane 3 or 4 at 2am on M25 or middle lane at any time on 3 lane motorways. Leaving merging lane they stick to the moiddle lane straight away and keep driving on it for hundreds miles. So , I find them the worst motorway's drivers in Europe.


My opinion comes from a personal experience which is based on driving in about 20 European countries and recently made journey from Portsmouth to Bielsko-Biała.

*To be clear, I drive as close as possible to Belgian standard.
__________________
piotr71 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old July 29th, 2011, 01:41 PM   #40
Road_UK
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Mayrhofen AT, Sneek NL, Bromley UK
Posts: 5,855
Likes (Received): 1599


In Britain they simply won't move. If anything, they get angry when you get to close or start flashing your lights - they immediately slam on the brakes! They're arseholes for that. Problem is in Britain and in Poland - if someone hogs the overtaking lane, and two or three cars sit patiently behind it, after a while you get long slow moving queues on the overtaking lane, while the inside lane(s) are empty. On the A4/E40 you sometimes get to your destination quicker by sitting on the inside lane(s) and passing on the illegal side when there are no lorries about. Same goes for the M1, M25 and M6.
Road_UK no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium