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Old December 13th, 2014, 01:20 AM   #81
Kanadzie
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Originally Posted by Autoputevi kao hobi View Post
What is the reason for Americans driving in left lane when they are not overtaking.
Americans are naturally competitive and so they like to be "the fastest" and stay in the "fast lane" but don't drive very fast either
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Old December 13th, 2014, 03:25 AM   #82
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What is the reason for Americans driving in left lane when they are not overtaking.
Laziness and the "I'm already driving the speedlimit so you shouldn't be able to overtake me anyway" argument.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 08:16 AM   #83
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That's the attitude in the UK as well. In Germany a terrifying amount of drivers are hogging overtaking lanes simply because they don't know any better.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 11:01 AM   #84
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In Germany a terrifying amount of drivers are hogging overtaking lanes simply because they don't know any better.
Yep in Germany itís awful, although many drivers respect the law of using the second/third/Ö lane only for overtaking. (Rechtsfahrgebot) But usually the unexperienced drivers who donít use the motorway so much are frightened of lane changes. It seems that this applies to many countries.

Especially in Germany you have the problem that these drivers often drive with 140km/h to 160km/h while others at the right lane drive 130km/h and trucks doing 80 to 90km/h. These drivers donít realize their mistakes, because they think: ďHey Iím faster than the right lane, so why should I do risky Ė in their perspective Ė lane changesĒ.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 12:45 PM   #85
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As long as they are alert and move right (when safe) to be overtaken when a faster vehicle (including by vehicles breaking any speed limit) actually comes along, then the drivers going 130km/h in the left lane have every right to treat it as the lane they should naturally be in.

130km/h is the recommended speed limit - obviously recommended doesn't mean as much as an actual legally enforceable limit, but it's still a limit. As such these 'left lane blockers' have every right to expect that most traffic will be going at their speed or slower, and as such, they should be in the overtaking lane. Provided (and this goes for roads where over 130km/h is illegal) they move right (when safe to do so) when a faster car seeks to overtake them.

Lane changes are dangerous (and capacity removing) - I don't see why attitudes that keep them to a minimum are inferior to RoadUK's Vogonesque 'obey the rules' attitude, or TrojaA's 'poop! poop! slow coaches only doing the recommended limit needs to do pointless lane changes just in case I speed along behind them and they get in my way while waiting for a safe place to move over and get delayed by seconds' attitude.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 04:28 PM   #86
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And there we have our UK driver contributing to a major stack-up of the M25. Thank God they are a dying breed and people are being made aware that overtaking lanes are for overtaking only at all times.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 06:55 PM   #87
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Road UK, either make some attempt to play the ball or give up. I don't mind playing rugby where you take the man out with the ball, but if your method of debate is just to attack the man (which is all you've done in the above post), then it's clear you have no argument beyond "its the rules dammit!".

Come on, if the deaths of those like me who will try to stay in lane is something worth celebrating, like you do, then surely you have something better against them than their nationality and congestion on one road*?

Oh, and this one road is a road where people are explicitly advised to 'Stay in Lane', and has provided years of data that shows that this advise not only reduces the effects of 'phantom jams', but also reduces one of the key causes of such jams - people braking as someone has just changed lanes in front of them. But you've made no attempt in this, or other, threads to engage with the actual evidence for 'Stay in Lane' being a safer and more capacious way to drive.

*Unless, of course, you are rejoicing in the idea of the death of those who disagree with you just because you are a hate-filled bigot of the highest order. There's evidence for this being the case: after all, what does my nationality have to do with anything unless you feel that Anglophobia is somehow rational debate?

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Originally Posted by Colin145 View Post
One thing i've noticed is that lane disciple in generally better in Scotland than the rest of the UK unless you are driving on the M8 in central Glasgow then you get morons who just sit in lanes 2,3,4 when the inside lanes are completely clear for no reason.
Lane 2 is the only lane that doesn't turn off at some point. Lane 1 turns off frequently - almost every km or so. There's merges from the right coming in, meaning that people are starting on the 'wrong side' of the road. There's no reason to move into lane 1 unless turning off or the people in lane 2 are seeking to overtake you.

There's lots of reasons why people don't keep left on the M8 in Glasgow!
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Old December 13th, 2014, 07:50 PM   #88
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If you're so afraid of changing lane, and it becomes another zealous health and safetyissue tthen I'd suggest the UK gives up driving all together. Wouldn't surprise me...
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Old December 13th, 2014, 08:11 PM   #89
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If you're so afraid of changing lane, and it becomes another zealous health and safetyissue tthen I'd suggest the UK gives up driving all together. Wouldn't surprise me...


Like how the 'Keep Your Lane' system doesn't see the point in exerting effort to decrease safety and capacity, I don't see the point in exerting effort reading Road UK's posts in order to decrease my intellegence. Someone tell me when he makes a comment on this thread that isn't bigoted hate-mongering pretending to be an argument.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 08:33 PM   #90
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Old December 13th, 2014, 09:49 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post


Like how the 'Keep Your Lane' system doesn't see the point in exerting effort to decrease safety and capacity, I don't see the point in exerting effort reading Road UK's posts in order to decrease my intellegence. Someone tell me when he makes a comment on this thread that isn't bigoted hate-mongering pretending to be an argument.
You don't know how to negotiate a motorway and I'm a hate mongering bigot? Take a look at your first post addressed to me and Troja
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Old December 13th, 2014, 11:20 PM   #92
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@sotonsi


In Germany if one doesnít obey the Rechtsfahrgebot, one will have to pay a fine (itís an administrative offence) and oneíll get 1 out of 8 points at the penalty register.

ďAs such these 'left lane blockers' have every right to expect that most traffic will be going at their speed or slower, and as such, they should be in the overtaking lane.Ē They have the right to expect that yes, but as the word says, itís the ďovertaking laneĒ and if they donít overtake, then they shouldnít use this lane. Itís against the laws, even if there is a speed limit one is NOT allowed to stay longer as needed for save overtaking in this lane. So neither the lane change nor the rule is pointless.

I donít get all of the other point, that lane changes are dangerous. If youíre on the overtaking lane, a lane change isnít dangerous, because you overtook all vehicles and so thereís plenty of space. And changing from the regular lane to the overtaking lane is maybe a bit more dangerous, but looking back over your shoulder and taking a look in the mirror makes overtaking much more save. Also itís some kind of experience someone needs to drive on a motorway.
You have to have a feeling how fast you can accelerate and you have to make a rough estimate whether the gap you want to use for overtaking is big enough. (Thatís why in most countries driving on the motorway is part of the driving school and sometimes itís part of the test)

Btw. if someone decides to overtake you on the right lane (against the law, but because heís annoyed that you donít obey one of the easiest rules), then it will be much more dangerous. (And thatís the only reason why there is such a rule)

I'm of the same opinion as Road_UK.

PS: Personal attacks arenít essential.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 12:30 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by TrojaA View Post
In Germany if one doesnít obey the Rechtsfahrgebot, one will have to pay a fine (itís an administrative offence) and oneíll get 1 out of 8 points at the penalty register.
That's "its the rules" without any justification of the rules.

In the UK, it's against the rules (though not specifically illegal). It's an administrative offence, sure, but not one that justifies the response that some advocate. It's also one that the police don't really care about and the people who operate the main roads keep putting signs up telling you to belay that instruction and stay in lane.
Quote:
ďAs such these 'left lane blockers' have every right to expect that most traffic will be going at their speed or slower, and as such, they should be in the overtaking lane.Ē They have the right to expect that yes, but as the word says, itís the ďovertaking laneĒ and if they donít overtake, then they shouldnít use this lane. Itís against the laws, even if there is a speed limit one is NOT allowed to stay longer as needed for save overtaking in this lane. So neither the lane change nor the rule is pointless.
And again, 'it's the rules', without justification of the rules. 'that they aren't allowed to stay in the lane' isn't an inherently valid reason to justify the rule changing lane, but circular reasoning in the form that they aren't allowed to as they aren't allowed to.

As long as a driver in the left lane gets out of the way of faster traffic, whom are they harming by staying in the left lane, rather than changing lane just because the right lane is currently empty?

What if (goodness me!) there are signs, backed by evidence of improved lane distribution, more safety and less congestion telling you to 'avoid lane changes' (slowly becoming official policy during the day on busy UK motorways)? Road UK and others have specifically mentioned the M25 as a road where lane discipline is awful, but on the M25, the rules are to not weave about (so really the keep-left gang have the bad lane discipline), but to stay in lane...
Quote:
I donít get all of the other point, that lane changes are dangerous. If youíre on the overtaking lane, a lane change isnít dangerous, because you overtook all vehicles and so thereís plenty of space.

And changing from the regular lane to the overtaking lane is maybe a bit more dangerous, but looking back over your shoulder and taking a look in the mirror makes overtaking much more save.
That it is slightly less dangerous isn't a great argument for doing something, sure (though better than Road UK's 'its slightly more dangerous' argument), but there's still no positive argument for always moving back if there's space in lane 1.

Even if these movements are safe, are they necessary?

In other threads on this topic, and in this one IIRC, left lane blocking has been called dangerous. That's clearly not the case. Also driving in a more safe way is clearly something that ought to be encouraged, and that more experienced drivers ought to do.
Quote:
Also itís some kind of experience someone needs to drive on a motorway.
You have to have a feeling how fast you can accelerate and you have to make a rough estimate whether the gap you want to use for overtaking is big enough. (Thatís why in most countries driving on the motorway is part of the driving school and sometimes itís part of the test)
You are saying that its inexperience, but I find that other than Vogons (who must obey rules at all costs), it's the experienced drivers that tend to stick to a lane near the middle of the road.

Especially when it comes to highways with 3 or more lanes in each direction. And highways like the M25 where they explicitly tell you to break the rules (which is lawful) and stay in lane. It's always the irregular users who show they have no clue here and hug the left side of the road as much as possible.

You can spot the unconfident/new driver in lane 1 with the limited vehicles, or moving across into lane 2 to overtake, but rarely lane blocking in the middle of the highway as that's too intimidating if cars keep coming up behind them and wanting to overtake them.
Quote:
Btw. if someone decides to overtake you on the right lane (against the law, but because heís annoyed that you donít obey one of the easiest rules), then it will be much more dangerous. (And thatís the only reason why there is such a rule)
Sure, but why should those who break the 'keep right' rule, get the harassment and blame for *******s performing 'undertaking' manoeuvres - to the point of Road UK being glad if they die?

Surely there's a massive difference in scale? Not moving over (when safe) when a fast vehicle comes behind you is a lack of courtesy*, but not inherently dangerous - undertaking is both. This is merely the 'poop poop out of my way' argument.

That not blocking the left lane is one of the easiest rules is true, but the clear cut "don't overtake on the right" rule is even easier to obey, so your argument is nonsense.

*and you'll note that I'm very much endorsing moving over to be overtaken should a car seeking to overtake you approach you and it be safe to change lanes.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 09:00 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post

Lane 2 is the only lane that doesn't turn off at some point. Lane 1 turns off frequently - almost every km or so. There's merges from the right coming in, meaning that people are starting on the 'wrong side' of the road. There's no reason to move into lane 1 unless turning off or the people in lane 2 are seeking to overtake you.

There's lots of reasons why people don't keep left on the M8 in Glasgow!
only between junctions 14 and 22 dose the inside lane leave and there is mostly only 2 or 3 lanes between there, except between, 14 and 15, and, 19 and 22, there are 5 lanes each except at junction 21 to 22 where there's between 13 and 17 lane in total (slip roads counted too). So if you had actually read my comment you would know that this has absolutely nothing to do with the problem.

My point is there is you should drive in the left lane until the lane markings change then move out into the middle lane as that has technically become the driving lane.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 11:38 PM   #95
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That's "its the rules" without any justification of the rules.

In the UK, it's against the rules (though not specifically illegal).
Let's stop fiddling with the traffic code, please. It's plainly illegal. One who does not obey that rule, can get an on spot fine.

Quote:
It's an administrative offence, sure, but not one that justifies the response that some advocate. It's also one that the police don't really care about
Well, do you know how many drivers have been fined since implementing on spot fines? To be honest, I have no idea and sadly have never heard about one, but still believe that some drivers were at least instructed by a policeman why there are 3 not 2 lanes on the motorway.

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and the people who operate the main roads keep putting signs up telling you to belay that instruction and stay in lane.
It's just partly true again. Operators put such signs (eg. A 40 Hanger Lane underpass) or display communicates "stay in lane" on matrix only together with lowering speed limit to 50 or less (M25) in condition of significant congestion, in which overtaking wouldn't be reasonable, anyway. Moreover, ordering drivers to stay in lane has only sense, when all vehicles are able to reach indicated speed, just to prevent from overtaking slower moving, say lorries, which, generally, aren't capable to roll over 55 miles per hour.

And you very well know that the same people also display "keep left unless overtaking" communicates, quite frequently.

Quote:
And again, 'it's the rules', without justification of the rules. 'that they aren't allowed to stay in the lane' isn't an inherently valid reason to justify the rule changing lane, but circular reasoning in the form that they aren't allowed to as they aren't allowed to. (..)
It's very simple: more distanced you drive from the traffic moving in different direction, more safe you are (ever seen or heard of an accident in which lorry crossed central reservation, crashed barriers and killed outside lane drivers?) That's very basic and original idea of building motorways.

Ever seen a car breaking in middle or outside lane and jam caused by it only because it could not move to the emergency shoulder? Do you suppose now why hard shoulder is built on the left?

Even if you want stick to a lane, say middle lane ( I do not care as long you can drive with constant speed, which by the way is rather impossible carrying on in one lane, and do not block and slow me down, because stuck behind a pensioner driving 50) some others must adjust to the left, just to let you flow.

Well, I cannot say keeping in lane does not work. Yes, it does, but only in certain, very definitive circumstances and motorway operators know it very well. So, let's not try inventing more circular wheel just roll it upright, instead.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 01:10 AM   #96
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Lane changes are dangerous attitude.
Sorry if lane changes are dangerous then why would you be in an overtaking lane? How did you get there?

If it really is so dangerous to change lanes then you would come up behind someone then match there speed for the rest of your journey or until they leave the road thus allowing you to speed up but then you would just slow down again.

If you sit in an overtaking lane and wait for someone to come up behind you before you change lanes then it's just more work for you. You will need to check your rear view mirror more to see if someone is behind you or closing in on you. Then you will have your eyes of the road more meaning you are subject to a higher chance of crashing.

Changing lane actually keeps you alert meaning you will pay more attention, meaning less crashes. If that is not safe driving then i don't know what is.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 05:03 PM   #97
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Americans are naturally competitive and so they like to be "the fastest" and stay in the "fast lane" but don't drive very fast either
Isn't it allowed to overtake on the right lane in the USA? Then there's no point in changing lanes...
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Old December 27th, 2014, 06:54 PM   #98
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Isn't it allowed to overtake on the right lane in the USA? Then there's no point in changing lanes...
Technically it's undertaking but it's supposedly illegal in all US states but is not enforced. There is a point in changing lanes though cause people will stay in a lane and not move so if you are moving faster than others then you need to weave in and out of cars to make any progress.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 09:53 PM   #99
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Isn't it allowed to overtake on the right lane in the USA? Then there's no point in changing lanes...
I would say it is relatively rare for that to happen in the US (car in left lane while right lane is empty)

What Americans are really complaining about is a car in left lane driving with, say, 115 km/h while on right lane, another car is driving at 115 or 114 km/h instead, so "undertaking" isn't really possible, or at least, is not easy.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 09:58 PM   #100
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This is where we'd start tailgating, with possible added flashing of lights, hooting and making funny gestures.
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