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Old March 30th, 2017, 06:51 AM   #421
xrtn2
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Brazil

Yellow lines are used to separate traffic moving in opposite directions







and white lines are used to separate traffic moving in the same direction



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Old March 30th, 2017, 06:22 PM   #422
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Finland plans to switch to white

A few weeks ago, the Ministry on Transport introduced the proposal for a renewed Road Traffic Act of Finland. The proposal includes a statement to quit using yellow paint on the road markings and use white color instead. The colors of traffic signs will not change: The background of warning, restrictive and prohibitive signs remains yellow.
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Old March 30th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #423
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Maybe another issue. Concerning just the all-white countries (except for temporary signage).

In some European countries - like Poland or Germany - a line separating traffic directions not permitted to cross is double solid. In some others - Bulgaria, Slovakia too if I am not mistaken, not sure about Austria - it's single solid, same as the line separating the hard shoulder.

Which solution is better?

Double solid - more noticeable and persuasive.
Single solid - paint efficient.

About the Finnish idea - I am for sticking to the solution applied till now in the specific country. Why should everything be exactly the same and unified? It gives the country kind of identity, that it's different in something.

In Poland, there was a project of law which was going to replace the double solid line with single solid line. As well as make the outline on warning signs thicker, not sure about the background about the warning signs (now we have yellow, most European countries have white - but yellow makes more sense as it's the "warning" color). But I would definitely prefer sticking to what we have now.

There is also a very rare option: a double dashed line. Meaning a lane with variable traffic direction, indicated by special traffic lights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_lane

Our law gives such an option, but I don't think it's used in practice anywhere in Poland.

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Old April 1st, 2017, 01:21 AM   #424
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Interesting

In Canada double-solid and single-solid have the same meaning, and are used basically interchangeably. I've never seen a real explanation but generally a 2 lane road of good quality would be double-solid (when passing prohibited), and a small 2-lane road or motorway would use single-solid (e.g. when lane changes not allowed)
But, always, the dashed line is single, since like you mention, double-dashed is for a exclusive lane usually in contraflow direction.
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Old April 1st, 2017, 12:22 PM   #425
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I wrote a post yesterday evening but didn't manage to send it because a forum update started...

I wanted to indicate two examples:



Some countries use this paint-saving version of painting the traffic-excluded areas. Slovakia, for example.

Poland doesn't have it and such areas are always fully filled with those lines.

The quality of horizontal signage is generally quite poor in Slovakia, unlike in Poland, but regardless of that, this version of painting an excluded area is a good idea in my opinion.

And an example from Poland:



Do you have any idea WHY this excluded area at the beginning of the left-turn lane? It would be much simpler if it wasn't present and you could drive smoothly onto this lane. Which many drivers do anyway, ignoring the excluded area.
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Old April 3rd, 2017, 03:12 AM   #426
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Let's change it up a bit - here's a few road videos showing the yellow lines on Norwegian roads, and motorways.

Oslo:


Lake Mjřsa north of Oslo:


Bergen:


Rural roads:




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Old April 3rd, 2017, 10:20 AM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
In some European countries - like Poland or Germany - a line separating traffic directions not permitted to cross is double solid. In some others - Bulgaria, Slovakia too if I am not mistaken, not sure about Austria - it's single solid, same as the line separating the hard shoulder.

Which solution is better?

Double solid - more noticeable and persuasive.
Single solid - paint efficient.
In Estonia it's a single solid if there's only one lane in each direction and a double solid if there is more than one lane in either direction.

Single solid
Double solid

The latter is mostly used in cities because we don't have highways with more than one lane in either direction that don't have a median.
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Old May 9th, 2017, 06:38 AM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snupix View Post
It's EU standard, so it's the same within the EU (I still don't know how Sweden can use yellow traffic signs - in Croatia we had to change them to white bc of the EU)
The yellow is also "eu standard" ... it means temporary or danger. Most northwern have snow all year round so they get to use "temporary" yellow all year round.




The same goes for the other EU countries ... ALL OF THEM use yellow markings whenever they want.
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Old May 9th, 2017, 08:47 PM   #429
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I think it's not true you had to change them. Maybe someone of the politicians somehow got supported by a manufacturer of road paint, or by a company providing road lines painting services?

It's same with the turn-right-on-red arrows in Poland, which had a form of static signs below the semaphore before we joined the EU and the government said they have to made them be actually a semaphore, turning on only under some conditions when we join the EU. While Germans still use static arrows, the former West Germany even adopted this solution from the former East Germany - and they have no problem with being in the EU and having static "conditional arrows".

There was actually no need for changing it, but someone said it has to be changed because of the EU (which was not true) and it was done.

The semaphore arrow has only one advantage. When the drivers from the opposite direction, turning left, have an "unconditional" signal allowing them to turn left, I shouldn't be allowed to turn right on red, so the semaphore arrow just disappears in such a situation. Static arrow couldn't be used at all. But it could be solved by installing semaphore arrows in the places where they are necessary and static arrows where they aren't.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 09:02 AM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
I think it's not true you had to change them. Maybe someone of the politicians somehow got supported by a manufacturer of road paint, or by a company providing road lines painting services?

It's same with the turn-right-on-red arrows in Poland, which had a form of static signs below the semaphore before we joined the EU and the government said they have to made them be actually a semaphore, turning on only under some conditions when we join the EU. While Germans still use static arrows, the former West Germany even adopted this solution from the former East Germany - and they have no problem with being in the EU and having static "conditional arrows".

There was actually no need for changing it, but someone said it has to be changed because of the EU (which was not true) and it was done.

The semaphore arrow has only one advantage. When the drivers from the opposite direction, turning left, have an "unconditional" signal allowing them to turn left, I shouldn't be allowed to turn right on red, so the semaphore arrow just disappears in such a situation. Static arrow couldn't be used at all. But it could be solved by installing semaphore arrows in the places where they are necessary and static arrows where they aren't.
What is all this talk about traffic signs and the EU? The EU does not regulate them.

The coordinating instrument is the Vienna Convention on Traffic Signs, facilitated by the UN. It is voluntary to join this agreements, and every member country has a power to make deviations.

In my opinion, the German implementation of turn-on-red is bad, because the sign is barely visible in many cases.
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Old May 10th, 2017, 09:48 PM   #431
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Wow, more than 10 years on, my thread is still going strong
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Old May 10th, 2017, 10:00 PM   #432
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The Polish one is also bad, because the arrow is green, while the meaning of a very similar signal is totally different. The similar one allows to turn right /or left/ without taking care of anything, while this one forces you to stop and to give way to other.

But we have already had a discussion about it and it seems, quite many countries use green arrow signals here.

This one:



vs. this (the similar) one:





Plus it's generally agreed that the green signals means "you can drive", while in such a situation you actually can't drive just so, you must stop first and give way first to the pedestrians and cyclists (at a separated path), then to the cars on the street across.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 08:26 AM   #433
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Yeah, if I saw a green light arrow, I would automatically assume that I can make a turn without having to stop first. Being from the USA, I would recognize a small square sign depicting a green arrow as the one that allows the right turn on red after a full stop though.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 10:33 PM   #434
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I like the Brazillian model of using yellow lines to divide oncomming traffic and white multi lane markings. Very nice.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 02:20 AM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Yeah, if I saw a green light arrow, I would automatically assume that I can make a turn without having to stop first. Being from the USA, I would recognize a small square sign depicting a green arrow as the one that allows the right turn on red after a full stop though.
I actually had this issue driving in Poland... I thought I had priority but whoa, car is coming from my left
Just adopting the "permitted unless expressly forbidden" standard of the USA/Canada would be cheaper and better IMO.

I've noticed in some jurisdictions (e.g. Laval, Quebec) they put the "no turn on red" when the opposite side has a protected left turn phase. But elsewhere (e.g. Ontario) this isn't used and typically you have right turn on red and protected left turns intermingling. Honestly... I don't see the issue, just pay attention
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Old May 12th, 2017, 05:36 AM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grykaerugoves View Post
I like the Brazillian model of using yellow lines to divide oncomming traffic and white multi lane markings. Very nice.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 03:30 PM   #437
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post


Do you have any idea WHY this excluded area at the beginning of the left-turn lane? It would be much simpler if it wasn't present and you could drive smoothly onto this lane. Which many drivers do anyway, ignoring the excluded area.
Because you can't stop there without partly blocking the other lane.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 04:20 PM   #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Von Königsberg View Post
Yeah, if I saw a green light arrow, I would automatically assume that I can make a turn without having to stop first.
That is a common way to interpret the traffic lights arrow. The German way in non-intuitive because a lit green arrow and a non-lit green arrow do not have the same meaning.

In Finland (and in many other countries, I believe), the right-turn-on-red is allowed if the turning lane is clearly separated from the main carriageway and from the traffic lights, like here:

https://goo.gl/maps/KrC7RJb1YbG2

The allowed setups in Finland are:


Right-turn traffic has its own lane after the crossing


No conflicting traffic flow from the opposite direction


Right-turning and left-turning traffic end up at different lanes


The separating triangle big enough: The left-turning traffic from the opposite direction has merged to the crossing road before the point of conflict.

Other rules apply, too: If the pedestrian path across the separating triangle is contiguous, its minimum length is 6 meters.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 11:40 PM   #439
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Because you can't stop there without partly blocking the other lane.
When you apply to the lines and stop in the allowed area, you block the other lane anyway. Not partly, but fully.

So I don't see any sense in it. It makes the situation worse rather then better. If you block the lane partially, you can still be overtaken by vehicles like bicycles, motorbikes, narrower cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
That is a common way to interpret the traffic lights arrow. The German way in non-intuitive because a lit green arrow and a non-lit green arrow do not have the same meaning.
The Polish way is even more non-intuitive, since both arrows are lit and they have totally different meanings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattiG View Post
In Finland (and in many other countries, I believe), the right-turn-on-red is allowed if the turning lane is clearly separated from the main carriageway and from the traffic lights, like here:

https://goo.gl/maps/KrC7RJb1YbG2
In Poland, such a set-up is not allowed. The separated right-turn carriageway has to have the traffic light too.

Which is often annoying for the pedestrians. See here, for example: https://goo.gl/maps/jNa9ALEHRTG2



If I walk the street from the right - on the sidewalk on the side of the camera - and I want then to go forward from the camera perspective, on the right-hand sidewalk, I have wait for the green light twice.

Of course, I usually ignore the red light on the right-turn lane, but it's how you can easily get a fine from the police.
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Old May 13th, 2017, 12:42 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Kpc21 View Post
When you apply to the lines and stop in the allowed area, you block the other lane anyway. Not partly, but fully.

So I don't see any sense in it. It makes the situation worse rather then better. If you block the lane partially, you can still be overtaken by vehicles like bicycles, motorbikes, narrower cars.
But such overtaking isn't allowed. Therefore, the markings are done like that.

I agree that it maybe would be better without them.
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