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Old March 4th, 2008, 06:05 PM   #441
Prairie Avenue
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Jeff

You ban the guy from the forum and then take shots at him? Seems petty.
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Old March 5th, 2008, 05:41 AM   #442
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairie Avenue View Post
You ban the guy from the forum and then take shots at him? Seems petty.
If you haven't already noticed, around here we take shots at a lot of NIMBY's--and the ones who especially have their heads up their rear ends certainly aren't spared. We're talking about a guy who has lost so much credibility that he even stopped posting with his own name at the Yo.

Do us all a favor and stop defending that adolescent
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Old March 5th, 2008, 06:49 PM   #443
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Do us all a favor and stop defending that adolescent
"us all" -- a monolithic group that you head up?

I didn't defend him, and in fact there would be no discussion of him here without you bringing him into it. I don't frequent the Yo boards but it sure seems like you want to bring your battles from there here where you know he can't respond to your attacks.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 04:26 AM   #444
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I didn't defend him, and in fact there would be no discussion of him here without you bringing him into it. I don't frequent the Yo boards but it sure seems like you want to bring your battles from there here where you know he can't respond to your attacks.
Nope. I stopped posting at the Yo months ago, but I still read it from time to time.

If it irks you so that I attack him, then let me make this easy for you. Every aspect of this tiny movement against X/O has long reeked of selfish, poorly conceived, baseless NIMBYism of the worst kind. People who have the gall and the nerve to keep dragging this issue along are the objects of my attacks. And guess whose name keeps coming up?

But then you always run to his defense. Great for you, be my guest. But now you know where I stand, as I do you. I'll keep pointing out how full of shit he and his group are, and you'll keep scurrying to their defense. Lets not pretend that something else is going on here.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 05:51 PM   #445
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Every aspect of this tiny movement against X/O has long reeked of selfish, poorly conceived, baseless NIMBYism of the worst kind. People who have the gall and the nerve to keep dragging this issue along are the objects of my attacks. And guess whose name keeps coming up?

But then you always run to his defense.
There has never been any question of where you stand. Pointing out your pettiness is not "running to his defense." For example, I didn't defend his quote in the article that peeved you so.

And you are uninformed about much of the "real story" when it comes to XO or else intentionally misrepresenting to say it is NIMBYism at its worst. The reality is that the majority of the "movement" against XO can be defined in a single word, GILES. The various skirmishes may have been fought under the guise of arguments that you would label NIMBYism, but he is the reason they were fought in the first place.

What should not be lost on this board or in the bigger framework of the city is the underside of the developer/development world that flooded the South Loop and other areas. Look where prime developers stand today -- Legacy, Rokas, Rezmar; Giles gamed the system the same way they did and they all seem to have inter-relationships, including with DiPiazza and Ferro.

Community groups have legitimate concerns not only about the renderings and development plans but who is behind the deals and how they worked the system into approvals. How the system is gamed to go after developers may end up looking like NIMBYism, but that doesn't mean NIMBYism is at its core.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 07:54 PM   #446
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Hey Mr. Ave., I'm still waiting for a reply to my question regarding the traffic study...

BTW, I think you betray the exact NIMBY motives that TUP is so concerned about when you reveal your real motivation: Giles. The purpose of community organizations should not be to further personal vendettas, but to review proposals for their inherent worth. The reputation of the developer plays a part in that, but ultimately, the organization's focus is on the development itself. If all developers were to be judged on every bad move they made in their past, I can assure that no developer would ever build twice.
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Old March 6th, 2008, 09:52 PM   #447
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Hey Mr. Ave., I'm still waiting for a reply to my question regarding the traffic study...

BTW, I think you betray the exact NIMBY motives that TUP is so concerned about when you reveal your real motivation: Giles. The purpose of community organizations should not be to further personal vendettas, but to review proposals for their inherent worth. The reputation of the developer plays a part in that, but ultimately, the organization's focus is on the development itself. If all developers were to be judged on every bad move they made in their past, I can assure that no developer would ever build twice.
On traffic I thought all of you (or all of us) had already dismissed answering with a peal of laughter -- "more traffic." It is a difficult posture to square with people who supposedly serve on community associations for "the good of the community." Do you need me to list for you the potential benefits of a traffic study? If the notion is laughable then what have you or your organization done to strip them from the planning and zoning process?

On your other points I am not sure why you want to rehash the XO issues. Why don't you post here the date of the first public or community meeting GSLA held on XO and let's compare that to the date on their letter of support. While we are at it how about posting GSLA's letters of support for the Rokas project? Some of "all of us" have already retracted their postings that PDNA was the death knell of that project because those posts were untrue.

BY the way there weren't and have never been my NIMBY concerns on XO, I am a nearby resident that has never minded the design of the towers.

To your point on developers it makes no sense. If a developer is known to have walked away from prior projects placing huge liabilities on the owners clearly they didn't live up to the projects they presented. So what if they present another rendering or design that looks great -- you just slap your approval on it? Don't you think it is a bad thing for the area that 1717 owners face 8 million in expenses to fix a developer error in their building. Do you really think that developer should be allowed to dodge that responsibility while he moves on to another project a few blocks down?

Look either there is merit to developers having to provide proof of community approval through groups like GSLA in that the groups serves a true vetting process and is a true community stamp of approval or get rid of the idea altogether. Giles had issues of quality long before XO and he certainly created at least the appearance of a conflict of interest if not an outright one with certain not for profits, and with his contributions to the alderman.

If you want to call putting those issues out there wrongful NIMBY concerns that is your problem not mine.
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Old March 8th, 2008, 09:06 PM   #448
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First off, I'm not sure what the GSLA has to do with this discussion at all...again, you are proving my point....do you really think that a community group has the necessary resources, investigative abilities, etc. etc. to properly police developers? Do you really think that each project that is presented to a community group should be held hostage based upon rumours and rants of former customers of whatever developer parties are involved? Do you really think it is up to the volounteers to become community development police? Issuing subpeonas, taking away business liscences, etc. etc.? Seriously, think about how that should work....what about a past project that had serious construction defects but the developer did his best to address them but the result was still inadequate, what then? ....what about a developer who had previous project generally regarded as excellent, but another who had a few, but very loud, owners who claim fruad, what then? What if a board member of a community group had a personal past relationship with a particular developer...should they recuse themselves from making any judgement on that project?

come on, you all are on a personal vendetta, we all know it, and it is foolish for you to claim otherwise now that you have already admitted it in your prior post...


Maybe only the DA's office should review projects.

As far as the traffic studies are concerned, I'm not sure if the GSLA has ever specifically requested them (I'm sure the PDNA has), and I am sorry if your feelings were hurt by someone on this thread, but I seriously would like to know what the NIMBY's who request them (like yourself) expect them to reveal?
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Old March 10th, 2008, 08:21 PM   #449
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Here's how it shouldn't work



I didn't design the system in terms of how it should work, but if a system is in place then at the very least the process defined by that system should be followed with transparency.

I don't think the system should be gamed and that is how XO worked. Should a board member close to a developer recuse himself -- yes. Should a "community group" providing the necessary letter of support as part of that process send the letter before it has held any community meetings -- no. You set up straw men to knock down, who said any development should be able to be held due to rantings and rumors?

IF GSLA or any other like organization doesn't have the resources to do any diligence then they should so admit and stop issuing letters of support. If they are going to represent themselves as experts in the area then do a workmanlike job.

On traffic studies I would foresee that they would provide the community an analysis with increases in traffic numbers, how ingress and egress to the development will be handled and the likely effect on existing traffic patterns along with suggestions for modifications of existing parking or traffic flows. Someone posted here just ban parking within 15 feet of alley way entrances -- instead of a shoot from the hip analysis why not have something done under the supervision of a traffic engineer?

Last edited by Prairie Avenue; March 10th, 2008 at 08:27 PM.
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Old March 10th, 2008, 09:26 PM   #450
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Well, Mr. Ave., the system does not include the policing of developers for all the reasons I posted above and you conveniently ingnored. By the way, none of you have ever provided any documentation of developer misdeeds other then rumors and rants anyway. If it so easy, why hasn't PDNA provided this? Seriously, what you describe falls under the DA's responsibility or, at the very least, in the civil if not criminal court system.

The traffic studies results you mention are all already part of any professionally developed site plan and as far as no parking within x amount of feet from an alley, that does fall under the purview of community organizations and the alderman, not the developer. The point is that traffic studies are indeed a red herring, any professional urban planner and architect knows this and are only conducted to provide cover for the developer. If there are larger traffic concerns beyond the immediate development, then community organizations should indeed be working with the alderman to get those addressed - but trying to impugn a project because 'proper' traffic studies have not been completed is simply ludicrous. This was the point TUP was making....we can argue whether traffic should be using an alley, or another new curb cut, but the larger impact of all of the traffic of X/O or just about any other residential project on the neighborhood and city is negligible - always has been, and always will be.

You can carry on the vedetta as much as you want, the rest of us are going to focus on the impact all of these new projects have on our community, the value of our homes, and the aesthetic quality of the neighborhood.
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Old March 11th, 2008, 02:38 AM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prairie Avenue View Post
Someone posted here just ban parking within 15 feet of alley way entrances -- instead of a shoot from the hip analysis why not have something done under the supervision of a traffic engineer?
Obviously, I'm not a traffic engineer - my suggestion was more in line with "if there are problems, then let's solve them and move on". I'm sure that an engineer would provide a better analysis of how to improve sight lines.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 09:24 PM   #452
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News?

Anyone hearing anything? Last word was that they expected to begin demo in May -- no activity on site yet.
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Old April 3rd, 2008, 09:44 PM   #453
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Anyone hearing anything? Last word was that they expected to begin demo in May -- no activity on site yet.
I spoke with someone higher than a sales associate, and I was told hopefully late summer. Of course this can either be sooner or later depending on the number of sales they get.
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Old April 16th, 2008, 06:23 PM   #454
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Anyone else

Hear rumors about converting Tower two to rental property?

I wonder if the spa or other amenities would then get built.
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Old April 17th, 2008, 01:34 AM   #455
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Nope. But rental in this area of the south loop wouldnt be a bad thing IMO. Theres not a whole lot of rental in the area, seems its mostly condos (besides long grove or whatever on Michigan). Either way, if it helps get the building done....

Theyve probably sold enough units in Tower I, from what it sounds, to keep the amenities there at least.
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Old April 30th, 2008, 08:23 AM   #456
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The South Loop has plenty of rentals coming up (next to Target, the revamped Burnham Pointe, 1400 block of State, 1212 Michigan, Sky55, 1100 Michigan, and change) Not to mention the potential that Roosevelt Collections tower could be apartments and the planned development North of River City will likely have more rental.

Regardless, I doubt X/O would take that hit. Though their sales are nowhere as high as the staff's optimism, it is a quality project. What we may see instead: Incentives and stagnant pricing. Prices have been the same for months....
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Old May 1st, 2008, 12:36 AM   #457
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^ And perhaps more studios & one bedrooms.
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Old May 12th, 2008, 09:03 PM   #458
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May construction start?

So much for the ground breaking by May of this year. Crains has big article today on Condo sales being dead downtown -- 201 units for the first quarter.

Wonder how many units remain to be sold in building now going up across the street or in Tower two a block away on S. Calumet?
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Old May 14th, 2008, 05:08 AM   #459
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I think this building is only around 40% or so.
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Old August 30th, 2008, 09:06 AM   #460
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does anyone know where I can get interior photos of X/O? I can't seem to find them on their site
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