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Old March 11th, 2007, 04:43 PM   #1
Bel Ludovic
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Birmingham Retail

I went back to Brum yesterday and found the city centre in a sorry state, with vacant units absolutely everywhere - three and a half years after the Bull Ring opened.

Everyone expected the Bull Ring effect, but things were supposed to have 'settled down' by now. And yet Martineau Place, Bull Street, Corporation Street - even the bit of New Street by the Bull Ring (Mexx didn't last long) all appear to be suffering. Even in the Bull Ring itself, the former Nike store remains unlet and there are other vacant units in the mall.

Great Western Arcade is, as always, only half-let and forlorn as usual. Shops on Corporation Street that ought to be full of people on a Saturday afternoon, such as House of Fraser and Urban Outfitters, were quiet. I didn't even venture to the The Mailbox, but I dread to think how busy (i.e. not busy) that would have been.

So what the cluck is going on? The theory was that landlords would have to lower rents across the rest of the city core once the Bull Ring was opened, and that independents would fill the newly-vacated units. This hasn't happened - not even one bit.

And yet, more retail space is planned - in the form of Martineau Galleries - when it manifestly isn't needed!
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Old March 11th, 2007, 04:52 PM   #2
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I think Martineau Galleries will do the opposite. It will attract retailers to the city centre so that all the activity is not centred around one place. As for the Mailbox, that's always been quiet - only 100 shoppers are in the place at one time - as a result of it being so upmarket. Bull Ring is just one step of a process to get Birmingham buzzing and it will get buzzing in the next 10-15 years.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 05:03 PM   #3
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I counted 14 empty lets at Martineau Place. A year ago they were all occupied. This is the same all over the country with retail though. Bank of England have made it very hard for retail, interest is wrong, too many people owe money for credit and mortgages. House prices have had a massive impact. A lot of shops at the Bull Ring have closed also, it's just so desirable the lets get rented quick.

Before the Bull Ring opened, you could not move through Big Top (where entrance to BHS and W.H. Smith's) or Corporation Street. Yes, Martineau Galleries will attract people away from the Bull Ring. House of Fraiser needs updating before Lewis' opens. The Bull Ring has made an effect, Corporation Street had the same effect 10 years ago and the Bull Ring was empty, 30 years ago the old Bull Ring had a similar effect. Pavilions had a pull at one time, but it didn't sustain. It's just a cycle that keeps on going and going. Martineau Galleries will move this cycle to Dale End and Corporation Street again.

Tell you something, I went to the Jewelry Quarter yesterday, the area was buzzing and the shops were way more packed than the jewelry shops at the Bull Ring.

Mail Box shop's are highly profitable. A few make more money than shops at the Bull Ring. I have proven this before on these forums using personal experience. I wont repeat again.

Bel Ludovic, I would not worry. Retail always bounces back in time in large cities such as Birmingham.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 05:05 PM   #4
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I hardly think its as bad as you suggest and I frequent the city often.

I think you will find that all cities and towns across the world will gradually feel the pinch of increasing web sales, I do wonder why we need new shopping areas when it would make more sense to fill the many empty units that are dotted around, the Nike store was a bit daft really, you can get the same goods for much cheaper elsewhere in the city so I wouldn't get too upset at its closure. I think taht the council needs to address the fact that as a city of one million people the city centre lacks many small independents, what would be a good idea is if there were incentives for suburban specialist shops to relocate to the centre of the city thereby creating more of a central shopping hub?
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Old March 11th, 2007, 05:10 PM   #5
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Not just Birmingham, the whole retailing sector is suffering. Increasing interest rates, increasing fuel & energy costs. People in general have less disposable income at the moment compared to several years ago.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 05:32 PM   #6
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The Nike store was not the only one in the country to shut down. About 5or 6 in total closed across the country and about 30 internationally.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 05:34 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bel Ludovic View Post
I went back to Brum yesterday and found the city centre in a sorry state, with vacant units absolutely everywhere - three and a half years after the Bull Ring opened.

Everyone expected the Bull Ring effect, but things were supposed to have 'settled down' by now. And yet Martineau Place, Bull Street, Corporation Street - even the bit of New Street by the Bull Ring (Mexx didn't last long) all appear to be suffering. Even in the Bull Ring itself, the former Nike store remains unlet and there are other vacant units in the mall.

Great Western Arcade is, as always, only half-let and forlorn as usual. Shops on Corporation Street that ought to be full of people on a Saturday afternoon, such as House of Fraser and Urban Outfitters, were quiet. I didn't even venture to the The Mailbox, but I dread to think how busy (i.e. not busy) that would have been.

So what the cluck is going on? The theory was that landlords would have to lower rents across the rest of the city core once the Bull Ring was opened, and that independents would fill the newly-vacated units. This hasn't happened - not even one bit.

And yet, more retail space is planned - in the form of Martineau Galleries - when it manifestly isn't needed!
I wouldn't worry about it - Brum being "bad" is still far better than almost anywhere else!

It's not just Brum, by the way - Coventry is now filled with empty units in prime spots, and a friend of mine went to Leicester the other weekend and commented that the bit of Leicester he likes most - The Lanes - was filled with empty units or shops closing down.

What annoyed me most about Brum was the way the great specialist shops have closed down - Andromeda Bookshop, Plastic Factory records, etc.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 06:00 PM   #8
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i think the factor to point out he is to extent the bull ring has had. many assumed that the 160 stores created through the bullring will create a focus in that area of town, decrease land prices and then the rents will go down thus attracting independants.

however, no-one factprs into the equation that land/property prices are still increasing. so yes, all the brand names are all still in the city, we aint lost anything (like here in newcastle which doesnt have a GAP, Zara, Woolworths etc, they have just moved around but the lets and rent on their old prices have stayed the same...

i think with the introduction of artineay galleries however, and the steady expansion of the city centre, this HAS to give soon and hopefully the rents wil drop forcing land lords to lower rents.

the only bugger that gets me though, and this only seems to happen in birmingham is these short-term lease shops. the ones that dont even bother to redo the inside of the shops. all they do is use the shops to stack em high and sell em cheap. no , we dont want a chav t-shirt for £2!!!!

birminghams shopping ain bad. i do believe infact we are the 3rd best location in the country for a shopping destination?!?!?!

all birmingham need to do is get its rents lower (which should be happening soon) and make the city centre a bit more nice... stopping the streets being covered with litter and flyers fro a start!
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Old March 11th, 2007, 06:49 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by woodhousen View Post
i think the factor to point out he is to extent the bull ring has had. many assumed that the 160 stores created through the bullring will create a focus in that area of town, decrease land prices and then the rents will go down thus attracting independants.

however, no-one factprs into the equation that land/property prices are still increasing. so yes, all the brand names are all still in the city, we aint lost anything (like here in newcastle which doesnt have a GAP, Zara, Woolworths etc, they have just moved around but the lets and rent on their old prices have stayed the same...

i think with the introduction of artineay galleries however, and the steady expansion of the city centre, this HAS to give soon and hopefully the rents wil drop forcing land lords to lower rents.

the only bugger that gets me though, and this only seems to happen in birmingham is these short-term lease shops. the ones that dont even bother to redo the inside of the shops. all they do is use the shops to stack em high and sell em cheap. no , we dont want a chav t-shirt for £2!!!!

birminghams shopping ain bad. i do believe infact we are the 3rd best location in the country for a shopping destination?!?!?!

all birmingham need to do is get its rents lower (which should be happening soon) and make the city centre a bit more nice... stopping the streets being covered with litter and flyers fro a start!
Somewhere i read / heard that Birmingham was now the 2nd best city for shopping?

I think the Bullring has had a dramatic effect on New Street, the whole street is now becoming full of building societies, banks and employment agencies and with aqcusitions (cant spell that!) these are going to the changing around aswell. I notice Bradford and Bingley has closed. The Woolwich will also close.

Has anyone noticed that those units near the O2 shop on New Street have been vacant for about 5 years?!! - since i first went to uni in Brum its been boarded up. Such a shame.

As residential schemes continue and more people move to the city centre you'll end up with more small Boots, Sainsburys and stuff like that that mainly serve 'locals' and not those from outside of the centre.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 06:51 PM   #10
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I forgot to say! With New Look 'moving' their second site to Corporation street and then the arrival of the Metro *cough* surely this area is going to start picking up again?
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Old March 11th, 2007, 09:25 PM   #11
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Anybody else think that the location of Louis Vuitton next to Austin Reed opposite the cathedral is a bit of a weird location for them. I would think that they would prefer such a location as the Mailbox.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 10:01 PM   #12
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I really think the Council needs to start a rent subsidy scheme to encourage independent shops and cafes to inhabit city centre units they would otherwise not be able to afford. The Great Western Arcade - such a wasted asset! - would really benefit from this approach.

What I'd like to know is: why do landlords not lower the rents of units that have proved hard to let? Surely a unit that is let at a lower price is more lucrative than an unit at its original price that lies empty? Basic rule of capitalism - if something doesn't shift, lower the price until it does! And yet retail units seem to be exempt. Bizarre.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 10:59 PM   #13
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Quote:
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I really think the Council needs to start a rent subsidy scheme to encourage independent shops and cafes to inhabit city centre units they would otherwise not be able to afford. The Great Western Arcade - such a wasted asset! - would really benefit from this approach.

What I'd like to know is: why do landlords not lower the rents of units that have proved hard to let? Surely a unit that is let at a lower price is more lucrative than an unit at its original price that lies empty? Basic rule of capitalism - if something doesn't shift, lower the price until it does! And yet retail units seem to be exempt. Bizarre.
Subsidy rents are not the answer. Coventry City Council tried this - all that happens is that shops open up (Lots of weird indie stuff) and then close when the subsidy runs out... It's just throwing money away.
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Old March 11th, 2007, 11:03 PM   #14
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Subsidy rents are not the answer. Coventry City Council tried this - all that happens is that shops open up (Lots of weird indie stuff) and then close when the subsidy runs out... It's just throwing money away.
That doesn't suprise me to be fair. We're just having a slowdown in the retail sector at the moment, like everywhere else in the UK.

Can you imagine how much worse it would be if we still had the old Bull Ring?
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Old March 11th, 2007, 11:22 PM   #15
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I don't really bother with the city centre these days. I do most of my shopping online, a) because its more convenient and b) its cheaper by and large.

Parking in the CC is also quite expensive, especially at the Bull Ring; it's also quite difficult to get to by car. Maybe I'm just getting lazy or just trying to maximize my spare time, but venturing into CC is not my idea of fun any more. Any I'm guessing quite a lot of people in and around most large cities in the country feel the same.

To be honest I do fear the worst for retail businesses in say 10 or 20 years time. £7bn was spent online last year, up by £3bn on the previous year in the UK. 2007/8 could rise to £12bn. This is the future I think: economics seem to dictate the fact that people don't have so much disposable income any more: higher interest rates, mortgage repayments, fuel bills et al. Have all meant people are little more careful with their spare cash. And when you have price comparison sites online where you can actually save loads of money compared to the same product in a retail shop.

Im not saying High Street Retailing is going to be dead in the next 20 years, but all these expansion plans in the CC could fall flat on their faces if people simply stay away
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Old March 11th, 2007, 11:53 PM   #16
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I don't really bother with the city centre these days. I do most of my shopping online, a) because its more convenient and b) its cheaper by and large.

Parking in the CC is also quite expensive, especially at the Bull Ring; it's also quite difficult to get to by car. Maybe I'm just getting lazy or just trying to maximize my spare time, but venturing into CC is not my idea of fun any more. Any I'm guessing quite a lot of people in and around most large cities in the country feel the same.

To be honest I do fear the worst for retail businesses in say 10 or 20 years time. £7bn was spent online last year, up by £3bn on the previous year in the UK. 2007/8 could rise to £12bn. This is the future I think: economics seem to dictate the fact that people don't have so much disposable income any more: higher interest rates, mortgage repayments, fuel bills et al. Have all meant people are little more careful with their spare cash. And when you have price comparison sites online where you can actually save loads of money compared to the same product in a retail shop.

Im not saying High Street Retailing is going to be dead in the next 20 years, but all these expansion plans in the CC could fall flat on their faces if people simply stay away
Ditto. I prob. shop in Cov city centre maybe once every two months... Everything else is got online, or in smaller places like Leamington that are easier to park in and, frankly, are far more pleasant than city centres. They also have more independent stores.
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Old March 12th, 2007, 02:12 AM   #17
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Can you imagine how much worse it would be if we still had the old Bull Ring?
LOL.. I actually thin kit would have been featured by the Independent and Guardian as a unique retro shopping experience and English heritage would have protected it and loads of Londoners and Mancunians would have flocked to shop in the subways and concrete hell, I actually enjoyed the old Bullring shopping experience but I know it had to go for the better, I just loved the pick pocket signs above one of the the subways. Anyone remember the flower seller? is it the same guy that now sells in Vicky square?
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Old March 12th, 2007, 02:14 AM   #18
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I bought many a reggae and rave white label from Summit records.. and Samebeat funk/hip hop shop in the old hexagon shaped hut was just amazing and I've never found anything like it outside of London since.
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Old March 12th, 2007, 11:22 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonny97 View Post
I don't really bother with the city centre these days. I do most of my shopping online, a) because its more convenient and b) its cheaper by and large.

Parking in the CC is also quite expensive, especially at the Bull Ring; it's also quite difficult to get to by car. Maybe I'm just getting lazy or just trying to maximize my spare time, but venturing into CC is not my idea of fun any more. Any I'm guessing quite a lot of people in and around most large cities in the country feel the same.

To be honest I do fear the worst for retail businesses in say 10 or 20 years time. £7bn was spent online last year, up by £3bn on the previous year in the UK. 2007/8 could rise to £12bn. This is the future I think: economics seem to dictate the fact that people don't have so much disposable income any more: higher interest rates, mortgage repayments, fuel bills et al. Have all meant people are little more careful with their spare cash. And when you have price comparison sites online where you can actually save loads of money compared to the same product in a retail shop.

Im not saying High Street Retailing is going to be dead in the next 20 years, but all these expansion plans in the CC could fall flat on their faces if people simply stay away
That is a very good point. If you look at the retailers who are doing well at the moment, John Lewis, Selfridges, and Tesco as 3 examples. Tesco are doing well because they're everywhere you look, and have a very good online system. John Lewis & Selfridges are doing well because of their "Retail Theatre." It is an experience to go shopping in their stores. The styling, the design, the smells, the customer service - People go there for the experience, and their core customers don't necessarily mind paying a little more for that experience. Buying luxury goods is all about touch, feel, and smell. You can't do that on the net. Ever noticed how you can smell the food hall from most ares in Selfridges? That's not an accident!

Marks & Spencer have become very good at this too.

City Centre's are changing radically because of the internet. I would say that DVD's will go the way of the CD in the next 10 years, which means the end of places like HMV on the high street. Music, Movies, and computer software can all be downloaded from the net, or ordered through the net. I think there will be a place for real bookstores like Waterstones on the high street, but their format will have to change, with more coffee shops going into the stores.

What I do think we may see a return of in City Centres, is food. We already have Tesco, M&S, and the other usual suspects with small(er) food stores in the city, but I also think we may see a resurgence of proper butchers, grocers, even an up-to-date version of a greasy spoon. If they are done right, with real quality local organic produce, they could be a hit with the ever expaniding populations living within our cities.
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Old March 12th, 2007, 03:33 PM   #20
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Heres a list of retail units that are currently under-offer. This must be the most activity since the Bullring was being let out!

163 Birmingham 138 New Street Rowley Hughes Thompson LLP £75,000 Under Offer
164 Birmingham 16 Hurst Street CB Richard Ellis Ltd 2,239 £50,000 Under Offer
165 Birmingham 34 Union Street Rowley Hughes Thompson LLP 1,225 £150,000 Under Offer
166 Birmingham 43/45 Colmore Row DTZ Debenham Tie Leung 990 £68,500 Under Offer
167 Birmingham 632 Kingsbury Road Burley Browne Chartered Surveys 733 £15,000 Under Offer
168 Birmingham 78 Bull Street Rowley Hughes Thompson LLP 1,492 £130,000 Under Offer
169 Birmingham 7A North Western Arcade Rowley Hughes Thompson LLP 697 £45,000 Under Offer
170 Birmingham Burlington Court - Units A & B DTZ Debenham Tie Leung Under Offer
171 Birmingham Kiosk E4, The Pallasades Shopping Centre Rowley Hughes Thompson LLP 323 £67,500 Under Offer
172 Birmingham Unit 3 Holliday Wharf DTZ Debenham Tie Leung 1,678 £42,500 Under Offer Unit has a Picture
173 Birmingham Unit 65 North Walk, The Pallasades Shopping Centre CB Richard Ellis Ltd 1,650 £140,000 Under Offer
174 Birmingham 103-117 New Canal Street Johnson Fellows 14,554 Under Offer Unit has a Picture
175 Birmingham 1044 Yardley Wood Road Bigwood Chartered Surveyors 575 £9,000 Under Offer
176 Birmingham 105 New Street DTZ Debenham Tie Leung 185 £85,000 Under Offer
177 Birmingham 12 Dalton Way DTZ Debenham Tie Leung 584 £24,000 Under Offer Unit has a Picture
178 Birmingham 1843, Pershore Road, Cotteridge Countrywide Property Management 629 £8,300 Under Offer
179 Birmingham 192/194 Broad Street CB Richard Ellis Ltd 7,237 £228,000 Under Offer
180 Birmingham 32 Stephenson Street Andrew Thompson & Co £18,500 Under Offer Unit has a Picture
181 Birmingham 34 Stephenson Street Andrew Thompson & Co 325 £18,500
182 Birmingham 35 Pinfold Street Andrew Thompson & Co 255 £17,000 Under Offer
183 Birmingham 4 Kings Parade Churston Heard 1,620 £82,500 Under Offer
184 Birmingham 5 Priory Square, Priory Square Shopping Centre Johnson Fellows 728 £17,000 Under Offer
185 Birmingham 600a Kingsbury Road, Erdington Burley Browne Chartered Surveys 266 £4,500 Under Offer
186 Birmingham 8 Priory Queensway Rowley Hughes Thompson LLP 1,469 £35,000 Under Offer
187 Birmingham 85 Hawthorn Road, Kingstanding Burley Browne Chartered Surveys 302 Under Offer
188 Birmingham Car Parking Spaces within Postbox Development Andrew Thompson & Co £2,000 Under Offer Unit has a Picture
189 Birmingham Unit 1 West 2 DTZ Debenham Tie Leung 2,067 £41,500 Under Offer Unit has a Picture
190 Birmingham Unit 1, 40 New Street DTZ Debenham Tie Leung 1,976 £310,000 Under Offer Unit has a Picture
191 Birmingham Unit 3, The Orion Building Capital Retail 4,161 £105,000 Under Offer
192 Birmingham Unit 3b, The Orion Building Shopfront Property Consultants 1,117 £37,500 Under Offer Unit has a Picture

Some of these aren't in the city centre, but most are.

Last edited by Scazmattaz; March 12th, 2007 at 03:40 PM.
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