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Old July 1st, 2010, 08:33 PM   #2961
hofburg
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hehe. nothing weird, if in august we have to accept all dumbasses from germany, austria, france, czech republic, oh wait... netherlands.

(a joke)
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Old July 1st, 2010, 08:52 PM   #2962
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Of course you have to accept us dumbasses, because we are paying good money for it!
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Old July 1st, 2010, 09:08 PM   #2963
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good money?! so you think, all tourists who enter karavanke/sentilj, and exit obrezje/gruskovje; that's good money?
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Old July 1st, 2010, 10:24 PM   #2964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
hehe. nothing weird, if in august we have to accept all dumbasses from germany, austria, france, czech republic, oh wait... netherlands.

(a joke)
Don't worry. Most of us (them) are just passing further south .
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Old July 1st, 2010, 11:18 PM   #2965
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Is this section considered part of the old "Brotherhood & Unity" highway?
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Old July 1st, 2010, 11:22 PM   #2966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
Don't worry. Most of us (them) are just passing further south .
my point exactly
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Old July 1st, 2010, 11:26 PM   #2967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokiboy View Post
Is this section considered part of the old "Brotherhood & Unity" highway?
what section? pluska - hrastje yes, peracica podtabor no.

edit: that's not true.

edit2: apparently I am right. B&U highway turned at Podtabor to Ljubelj pass.

Last edited by hofburg; July 2nd, 2010 at 07:38 PM.
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Old July 1st, 2010, 11:37 PM   #2968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hofburg View Post
what section? pluska - hrastje yes, peracica podtabor no.
it is (was). Bratstvo & Jedinstvo ahd beginning at Karavanke tunnel (actually, road no 1 in Yugoslavia had beginning even at that border crossing near Kranjska Gora).
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Old July 1st, 2010, 11:51 PM   #2969
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I was think about the section that just opened, near Trebnje. Thanks.
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Old July 1st, 2010, 11:56 PM   #2970
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Quote:
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it is (was). Bratstvo & Jedinstvo ahd beginning at Karavanke tunnel (actually, road no 1 in Yugoslavia had beginning even at that border crossing near Kranjska Gora).
didn't know that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother..._Unity_Highway

I think Keber would know where exactly was that road from ljubljana to naklo in 50s - 70s. ?? because I have no idea.

Last edited by hofburg; July 2nd, 2010 at 12:04 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 01:55 AM   #2971
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The road from Ljubljana to Naklo was part of improving the trans-yugoslav highway in the first Yugoslavia (Kingdom of Yugoslavia) somewhere in the nineteenthirties (before the outbreak of the WW2). It was a concrete-pavement road, which started on the end of Tržaška cesta (road to Tržič) in Ljubljana, with the concrete Kokra bridge in Kranj, and ended after Naklo, just on the beginning the full half-motorway Naklo-Kropa-Brezje (1+1 with hard shoulders). Another part of that road was the old road from Brezje (just at the end of beforementioned half-motorway) to the city of Bled (the old Yugoslav riviera, with a royal villa projected by famous architect Plečnik), I think also a concrete-pavement road.

With the outbreak of WW2, Hitler has planned an extension of than Tauern-Reichsautobahn, from Villach via Klagenfurt, through the Ljubelj/Loibl pass to Ljubljana, but executed was only the tunnel, and perhaps the pavements on Slovenian side (Remember, the road from Kropa via Tržič to Ljubelj is actually a some kind of 1+1 expressway without the hard shoulders, and was in the second Yugoslavia designated as such till the seventies: Yugoslav road no.1 (Brotherhood and Unity "Motorway/Autoput"), where the old road through Jesenice to Korenpass was designated as Yugoslav road no.1.1. The road from Loibltunnel to Klagenfurt on the Austrian side is a steepy highway.).

En-passant: such concrete-pavement roads from the time just before the outbreak of the WW2 exist in the vicinity of Zagreb: from Črnomerec through Jankomir-Sv.Nedelja-Samobor to Bregana (Slovenian border) and from Dubrava through Sesvete to Dugo Selo (in direction Belgrade).

The first section of the Brotherhood and Unity "Motorway/Autoput", from Zagreb to Belgrade, which has been built from 1945-1949, has begun near Podsused (to has being connected to the concrete-road to Bregana) and, as today Ljubljanska-Zagrebačka-Slavonska avenija, has overpassed the than city of Zagreb, and as the today northern track of A3 has gone in direction Belgrade.

When the Yugoslav communist party decided in the middle fifties that an extension of B&U Mot./Ap. to the city of Ljubljana should have being built, they simply connected it to the old Zg/Bg section near Jankomir (today KingCross exit on the Ljubljanska avenija expw.) and connected in Škofljica, simply because the asphalt/or concrete road from Ljubljana to Škofljica existed from the pre WW2 period (that section of B&U Mot./Ap. was finished in 1958).
Beacause the terrain in south of Ljubljana is swampy, and in the north of it is hilly, and the money was needed for the Serbian part of B&U Mot./Ap. (Belgrade-Niš-Skopje-Gevgelija), they decided not to built a Ljubljana overpass, but simply a tunnel under the Old city. So the traffic in Ljubljana was congested even in the seventies.

Instead of Ljubljana overpass, in the early sixties they have built beforementioned section Naklo-Kropa-Brezno, and Kropa-Ljubelj, as Slovenian part of B&U Mot./Ap. As a boy I remembered that a modern road from Radovljica to Jesenice (than NOT a B&U Mot./Ap.), with railway underpass, was finished somewhere in 1969 or 1970.

Last edited by darko06; July 2nd, 2010 at 02:31 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 02:52 AM   #2972
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Summary:
Before the WW2:
Streets of Ljubljana
Ljubljana-Škofljica (concrete or asphalt?)
Ljubljana-Medvode-Kranj-Naklo (concrete)
Brezje (or Brezno?)-Radovljica-Bled (concrete/granite blocks?)
In Croatia: Črnomerec-Podsused-Samobor-Bregana (granite blocks/concrete)
After the WW2:
Brotherhood & Unity "Motorway/Autoput":
Podsused-Jankomir-Novska-Sl.Brod-Zemun (concrete/granite blocks) finished 1949
Jankomir-Škofljica (concrete/granite blocks, under/overpasses, exits, first half-motorway in the communist Yugoslavia) finished 1958
Naklo-Kropa (concrete/granite blocks, under/overpasses, exits, first full half-motorway with hard shoulders in the communist Yugoslavia) finished in the early sixties
Kropa-Brezje (asphalt, under/overpasses, exits, first full half-motorway with asphalt pavement and hard shoulders in the communist Yugoslavia) finished in the early sixties - bridges and tunnel without hard shoulders (EXACTLY WHERE TODAY IS STILL WORKING)
Kropa-Tržič-Ljubelj tunnel (asphalt, under/overpasses and exits-only section Kropa-Tržič) finished presumably in the early sixties

Last edited by darko06; July 2nd, 2010 at 03:09 AM.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 03:06 AM   #2973
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The old half motorway (or expressway) from Jankomir to Škofljica is today the southern lane of the:
Croatian A3 from interchange Jankomir to Obrežje;
Slovenian A2 from Obrežje to Kronovo, and again from the middle tunnel between Pluska and Bič to Šmarje-Sap (actually, the Šmarje-Sap exit in Ljubljana direction goes to the old expressway to Škofljica).

The x-tipe is wrong. B&U Mot./Ap. had begun at the Ljubelj/Loibl tunnel.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 03:17 AM   #2974
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About the Brotherhood&Unity "Motorway/Autoput" (in Slovenian: Avtoput bratstva in enotnosti): it doesn't have overpasses to the cities of Ljubljana, Niš and Skopje. In Belgrade they build a full motorway secton from the Surčin/Belgrade airport exit through the capital to the Bubanj potok (This it today the most congested road in Serbia). First city in former Yugoslavia with a beltway was Zagreb (so called Zagrebačka obilaznica, from int. Jankomir to int. Ivanja Rijeka), finished in 1981.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 03:30 AM   #2975
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Darko, can you write all stuff in one post ?
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 03:36 AM   #2976
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I'll try in the future. I have taken all this from my head, and in such circumstances more than one post is inevitable.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 05:13 AM   #2977
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Interestingly, the Ljubljana-Zagreb motorway was completed exactly 4 years after completion of the Zagreb-Belgrade motorway. They were both completed on 30th June.

http://translate.google.com/translat...px&sl=hr&tl=en (lipanj = June)
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 10:06 AM   #2978
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Quote:
(Remember, the road from Kropa via Tržič to Ljubelj is actually a some kind of 1+1 expressway without the hard shoulders, and was in the second Yugoslavia designated as such till the seventies: Yugoslav road no.1 (Brotherhood and Unity "Motorway/Autoput")
Yeah, I remember the Slovenian side of the Ljublej is far better than the Austrian side, which is narrow with sharp turns. You can really maintain some speed in Slovenia.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 06:03 PM   #2979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post

En-passant: such concrete-pavement roads from the time just before the outbreak of the WW2 exist in the vicinity of Zagreb: from Črnomerec through Jankomir-Sv.Nedelja-Samobor to Bregana (Slovenian border) and from Dubrava through Sesvete to Dugo Selo (in direction Belgrade).
not anymore. Sveta Nedelja - Samobor is completely repaved, just as Zagrebačka and Bjelovarska street in Sesvete.
however, i am not sure for Sesvetski Kraljevec - Dugo Selo (just between exit fro A4 and entrance to Dugo Selo), this could possibly still be made in concrete. i am talking about this section od D41. i passed ther one month ago, but i really don't remember it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post

The x-tipe is wrong. B&U Mot./Ap. had begun at the Ljubelj/Loibl tunnel.
i really didn't know that. i thought that Bratstvo & Jedinstvo coincided with road 1.
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Old July 2nd, 2010, 07:34 PM   #2980
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thank you very much darko06 for that great explanation!
a few things still aren't clear in my head:

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
It was a concrete-pavement road, which started on the end of Tržaška cesta (road to Tržič)
trzaska cesta - road to trieste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Beacause the terrain in south of Ljubljana is swampy, and in the north of it is hilly, and the money was needed for the Serbian part of B&U Mot./Ap. (Belgrade-Niš-Skopje-Gevgelija), they decided not to built a Ljubljana overpass, but simply a tunnel under the Old city. So the traffic in Ljubljana was congested even in the seventies.
a tunnel?? they didn't built one or is that one under the castle?

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
Instead of Ljubljana overpass, in the early sixties they have built beforementioned section Naklo-Kropa-Brezno, and Kropa-Ljubelj, as Slovenian part of B&U Mot./Ap. As a boy I remembered that a modern road from Radovljica to Jesenice (than NOT a B&U Mot./Ap.), with railway underpass, was finished somewhere in 1969 or 1970.
with Kropa - you mean Podbrezje or today's interchange A2/Trzic-Ljubelj? because Kropa is really far away and out of the route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by darko06 View Post
About the Brotherhood&Unity "Motorway/Autoput" (in Slovenian: Avtoput bratstva in enotnosti).
(avto)CESTA bratstva in enotnosti.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brother..._Unity_Highway

So, wikipedia is wrong twice:
"The Brotherhood and Unity Highway (...) (was) stretched over 1,180 km (733 mi) across former Yugoslavia, from the Austrian border near Kranjska Gora in the northwest via Ljubljana, Zagreb, Belgrade and Skopje to Gevgelija on the Greek border in the southeast."

from Ljubelj pass via Ljubljana...

"The situation slightly improved after some parts were brought up to modern motorway standards (two lanes for each direction plus an emergency lane) on sections Kranj-Ljubljana (20 km)..."

Kranj Ljubljana motorway has a completely new route bypassing Medvode (where was the old B&U highway) via Vodice, and has nothing to do with old section. near Ljubno, there both routes are (almost) identical.

Last edited by hofburg; July 2nd, 2010 at 07:40 PM.
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