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Old April 25th, 2016, 10:33 PM   #5961
kreden
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Yes, there is a large seasonal increase, but overall traffic levels are still low. The Jelšane/Rupa border crossing has an AADT of 4500, at Starod/Pasjak (the road to Kozina) it's 4700. Traffic does increase further along up to 6-7k on both roads and to 11k between Postojna and Pivka, but apart from the latter section, it's quite low. Upgrades to the current road and bypasses of towns along the route would probably be sufficient for quite some time.

That is also all that is planned for the Kozina - Starod road, as far as I'm aware.
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Old April 25th, 2016, 10:45 PM   #5962
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The priority also includes an extension(3+3) Ljubljana ring and some parts of A1.
The average traffic already exceeds 10.000 trucks per day. Drive lane on A1 has become useless, overtaking between trucks is becoming a big problem.
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Old April 25th, 2016, 10:53 PM   #5963
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When is this planned, and is there space for this widening?
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Old April 25th, 2016, 10:59 PM   #5964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smokiboy View Post
Has there been any recent talk of connecting Kozina - Rupa?
Last time this motorway was seriously considered was in times of Yugoslavia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kreden View Post
The Jelšane/Rupa border crossing has an AADT of 4500, at Starod/Pasjak (the road to Kozina) it's 4700. Traffic does increase further along up to 6-7k on both roads
Between Ilirska Bistrica and Pivka it falls to as low as 3,600 due to the parallel road through Knežak.
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Old April 25th, 2016, 11:31 PM   #5965
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Originally Posted by smokiboy View Post
I would propose from Novo Mesto to Karlovac (CRO) or direct to A1 in Croatia as an interesting link, but not sure if there is demand for such a route.
There are plans for that. Someone was actually just asking about it in this thread. I'd say the demand is relatively high because in addition to connecting Central Slovenia and everything to the northwest of it to Dalmatia, it would also bring a much better route from the towns of Metlika and Črnomelj to the rest of Slovenia. It won't be built anytime soon though. And in contrast with other routes, Croatia even has reason to oppose this one as it would mean less tolls for them since people wouldn't drive via Zagreb anymore.

As far as the Kozina-Starod/Pasjak route is concerned, I think everyone's aware that it's the shortest overland link between Italy and most of the Croatian coastline, but since it almost exclusively serves Italian tourists going to Croatia, it would make very little sense for Slovenia to fund such a project. Besides, as long as the vignette system is in place, I'd say most people will actually prefer not having a motorway or expressway there. Croatia seems to consider the route to Postojna more important as well since they built their motorway to Rupa and not Pasjak.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 12:07 AM   #5966
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Thanks for the explanation. I agree with you. And to add, at that point, if all these 'dream' motorways/expressways are ever built in Slovenia, then I'm afraid that that would be too many motorways for Slovenia to economically support/maintain. The 'economies of scale' start working against you.

Anyway, SLO has by far the best network in former YU. I'd think 90% of the population is not further than some 25km or so from a motorway.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 12:48 AM   #5967
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Some are dreamy others are just a bit overdimensioned or maybe not even that. There is a tendency that DARS (state motorway company) will take charge of building the new road/motorway projects. This is happening in the parts where completely new road is necessary. Of course, these new "super main roads" would be under the vignette system and that's not a problem since most of the Slovenians have a year vignette. DARS makes lots of money with A1 (and A2) and has a bigger budget than 100% state funded Agency for the infrastructure.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 01:39 AM   #5968
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There are plans for that. Someone was actually just asking about it in this thread. I'd say the demand is relatively high because in addition to connecting Central Slovenia and everything to the northwest of it to Dalmatia, it would also bring a much better route from the towns of Metlika and Črnomelj to the rest of Slovenia. It won't be built anytime soon though. And in contrast with other routes, Croatia even has reason to oppose this one as it would mean less tolls for them since people wouldn't drive via Zagreb anymore.

As far as the Kozina-Starod/Pasjak route is concerned, I think everyone's aware that it's the shortest overland link between Italy and most of the Croatian coastline, but since it almost exclusively serves Italian tourists going to Croatia, it would make very little sense for Slovenia to fund such a project. Besides, as long as the vignette system is in place, I'd say most people will actually prefer not having a motorway or expressway there. Croatia seems to consider the route to Postojna more important as well since they built their motorway to Rupa and not Pasjak.
It would have been much better if Yugoslavia had built a lot of motorways connecting its main cities before its dissolution. It would have been more easy to build motorways when there weren't borders and international relations issues between the 6 countries. But, like other communist countries, they built hardly any motorways.
I think international connections like Trieste-Rijeka, Trieste-Umag, Ljubljana-Rijeka should be heavily financed with EU funds, with an EGTC-like scheme.
It's not only a problem of the I-SLO-HR area though, as in many areas of Europe bad highways gaps exist across international borders. Italy, for example, will benefit also with a direct link Innsbruck-Munich, the full upgrade of Swiss A13, and a direct connection between Mont Blanc tunnel and French A40.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 02:47 AM   #5969
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It would have been much better if Yugoslavia had built a lot of motorways connecting its main cities before its dissolution. It would have been more easy to build motorways when there weren't borders and international relations issues between the 6 countries. But, like other communist countries, they built hardly any motorways.
I don't think your statement is fair. Yugoslavia firstly focused on building a modern state road network, because even after WW2 there were hardly any decent roads in most parts of Yugoslavia. In 70's focus shifted on building motorway network, starting with upgrade of Ljubljana-Zagreb-Belgrade road to motorway standards and building motorway bypasses and ring roads (Ljubljana bypass, Zagreb bypass, Belgrade bypass). There were also works on other motorways (Ljubljana-Koper, Ljubljana-Maribor, Zagreb-Rijeka, Belgrade-Novi Sad, Belgrade-Niš-Skopje...).
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Old April 26th, 2016, 03:03 PM   #5970
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And they have done a rather good work in construction good Magistral roads. And don't forget, Yugoslavia was short on money. And you can't build roads without money...
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Old April 26th, 2016, 03:51 PM   #5971
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Yugoslavia didn't build even 1,000 km of motorways.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 06:36 PM   #5972
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italystf,
don't bother with Gedeon. He sometimes stated something without checking.
E.g., Belgrade beltway was considered unnecessary because the only truly motorway part of Brotherhood and Unity thruway was Belgrade inner expressway, from Surčin to Bubanj Potok, finished in early seventies. All other parts were semi-expressways, Zagreb-Belgrade without interchanges and later Zagreb-Ljubljana, Naklo-Ljubelj and Bubanj Potok-Gevgelija with interchanges (there was an interruption in Niš too).
In late sixties communist administrations of Slovenia and Croatia tried to construct their motorway axes (Šentilj-Maribor-Ljubljana-Koper and Zagreb-Karlovac-Rijeka as true motorways), and Tito fired them. Let's say that in 1976 in Yugoslavia existed less than 100 km of motorways (Vrhnika-Postojna cca 30 km, Zagreb-Karlovac and before Rijeka cca 50 km and Belgrade inner motorway cca 20 km.
The thruway of Brotherhood and Unity was started to convert in true motorway after 1975, financed in whole from EEC (today EU) as a bypass with Greece and Western Europe. It is common fact that late Slobodan Milošević was a bank official from a Belgrade impex bank, who in early eighties succesfully negotiated an extended loan for Belgrade-Niš motorway.

As far as I remember,
in Yugoslavia in 1990 there were finished motorways:
1. Parts stated above, 100 km, financed in whole with Yugoslav either federal or Republic funding.
2. Parts of completing Brotherhood and Unity thruway:
2a. Ljubljana-Naklo, cca 20 km,
2b. Jankomir-Brodski Stupnik, cca 190 km,
2c. Bubanj Potok-Trupale near Niš, cca 220km,
2d. Kumanovo- (Titov) Veles, cca 80 km,
2e. Gevgelija bypass, cca 5 km, alltogether cca 515 km.
3. Vrhnika-Log-Ljubljana Southern beltway, cca 20 km (in Slovenia)
4. Tetovo-Gostivar, as an abart between true motorway and Italian Superstrada, with speed limit of 80 kmh (was driving there several years ago), 20 km.
Summa summarum cca 650 kms, of which 520 were funded with European Money exclusively. Truth hurts.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 06:40 PM   #5973
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It is actually Slovenia that has to build its north-south expressways if not even highways with Croatia, given the fact that the country switched from toll taxes to vignettes. In other words you already charge the vehicles per certain time period (week/month/year) rather than per travelled distance, so statements like most people would probably prefer not to have a motorway or expressway do not sound serious. Everybody wants to use at least an expressway in stead of a typical single carriageway with two lanes and if you increase the capacity of the pipe, you will only benefit from it because such a road then serves more vehicles per unit of time. It does not matter if you travel 200+km or just 30km through Slovenia, you pay the same vignette but it matters if you shorten the distance by 50-60km and use only fast roads.
Slovenia is at the crossroads of central Europe and your existing highways handle a lot of traffic. Come on guys you can build these strategic missing links (from Ptuj, Novo Mesto, Postojna and even Izola to Croatia respectively) very fast if you want. Moreover the prices of your vignettes (up to 3.5t) are everything but cheap:

Slovenia:
1 week - 15 EUR
1 month - 30 EUR
1 year - 110 EUR

Austria:
10 days - 8.80, approx. 9 EUR
2 months - 25.70, approx. 26 EUR
1 year - 85.70, approx. 86 EUR

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Old April 26th, 2016, 06:41 PM   #5974
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Belgrade bypass construction started before 90's.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 06:45 PM   #5975
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It started in November 1990 according to B92
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Old April 26th, 2016, 06:51 PM   #5976
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And I agree in whole with italystf that the projected motorway from Villa Opicina through Kozina and Rupa to Rijeka was and is worth finishing. It was so-called third Osimo motorway (first was Razdrto-Villese, second was Razdrto-Fernetti).
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Old April 26th, 2016, 07:06 PM   #5977
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
It is actually Slovenia that has to build its north-south expressways if not even highways with Croatia, given the fact that the country switched from toll taxes to vignettes. In other words you already charge the vehicles per certain time period (week/month/year) rather than per travelled distance, so statements like most people would probably prefer not to have a motorway or expressway do not sound serious. Everybody wants to use at least an expressway in stead of a typical single carriageway with two lanes and if you increase the capacity of the pipe, you will only benefit from it because such a road then serves more vehicles per unit of time. It does not matter if you travel 200+km or just 30km through Slovenia, you pay the same vignette but it matters if you shorten the distance by 50-60km and use only fast roads.
My comment was directed specifically at the Kozina-Starod route. The existing road there is about as straight as it can be, so a new motorway/expressway would only shave off about 1 km. Would you be willing to pay €15 to save 5, maybe 10 minutes? I agree that the vignettes should be cheaper, but for such short routes, they'll always be too expensive.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 07:19 PM   #5978
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It is interesting that the expressway part from Koper to Rabujez/Rabuiese costs 15 euro (a weekly vignette) where the expresway & motorway parts from Rabuiese to Aurisina toll booths are free.
Moreover, after entering Slovenia at Rabujez there is a self-made panel with warning in Slovenian: Vozite po cesti katera nima uporabnega dovolenja. Zaračunanje cestnine ni legalno (You're driving on a road which don't possess usage permit (therefore) taking toll is not legal).
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Old April 26th, 2016, 07:26 PM   #5979
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
It is actually Slovenia that has to build its north-south expressways if not even highways with Croatia, given the fact that the country switched from toll taxes to vignettes. In other words you already charge the vehicles per certain time period (week/month/year) rather than per travelled distance, so statements like most people would probably prefer not to have a motorway or expressway do not sound serious. Everybody wants to use at least an expressway in stead of a typical single carriageway with two lanes and if you increase the capacity of the pipe, you will only benefit from it because such a road then serves more vehicles per unit of time. It does not matter if you travel 200+km or just 30km through Slovenia, you pay the same vignette but it matters if you shorten the distance by 50-60km and use only fast roads.
Slovenia is at the crossroads of central Europe and your existing highways handle a lot of traffic. Come on guys you can build these strategic missing links (from Ptuj, Novo Mesto, Postojna and even Izola to Croatia respectively) very fast if you want.
Roads to Croatia are rather empty.

http://www.di.gov.si/fileadmin/di.go...nitve_2014.pdf
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Old April 26th, 2016, 07:56 PM   #5980
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I think things will change when (if) Croatia will join Schengen.
Moreover, AADT is not a good indicator for roads that have strong seasonal traffic variation because they lead to sea tourism locations. They should use ASDT instead.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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