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Old April 26th, 2016, 08:33 PM   #5981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
Moreover, AADT is not a good indicator for roads that have strong seasonal traffic variation because they lead to sea tourism locations. They should use ASDT instead.
Just as I didn't use winter traffic figures, I didn't use summer figures either. Why should we pay for motorways for Croatian tourism? An average Slovenian (obviously not counting locals here) drives once a year or less on these roads. It's easy for foreigners (who also drive there only once a year or less) to demand motorways from us, because they know they won't pay for their construction and maintenance anyway. Unless they are heavily subsidized by the EU.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 09:34 PM   #5982
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Just as I didn't use winter traffic figures, I didn't use summer figures either. Why should we pay for motorways for Croatian tourism? An average Slovenian (obviously not counting locals here) drives once a year or less on these roads. It's easy for foreigners (who also drive there only once a year or less) to demand motorways from us, because they know they won't pay for their construction and maintenance anyway. Unless they are heavily subsidized by the EU.
That was my point.
Inter-regional EU cooperation projects exist for such reasons.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 09:40 PM   #5983
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EU funds should be spent for economic reasons. On the other hand, tourism is an important economic sector... for Croatia...
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old April 26th, 2016, 09:52 PM   #5984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Verso View Post
Just as I didn't use winter traffic figures, I didn't use summer figures either. Why should we pay for motorways for Croatian tourism? An average Slovenian (obviously not counting locals here) drives once a year or less on these roads. It's easy for foreigners (who also drive there only once a year or less) to demand motorways from us, because they know they won't pay for their construction and maintenance anyway. Unless they are heavily subsidized by the EU.
The irony when you are stucked in the slo-cro border for hours, only to realize there is an older border a few km's away....

But I think you can win alot by building a larger rest area before the border with croatia where people can pay with euros for the fuel and food.
You also lose the heavy traffic around the local villages.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 10:09 PM   #5985
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It is not only about the mere tourism in Croatia, it is about constant opportunities to attract more traffic. The activities in Croatia, whatever they are, heavily depend on the infrastructure and nowadays a lot of countries in Western and Central Europe except Hungary go exactly through Slovenia in order to reach the eventual destinations in Croatia, provided people do not take airplanes. It is about the potential of these roads which remain underestimated. If you are planning a fast road, you certainly do it for your own needs first but with the notion to make use of your geographical location and stimulate the capacity on a regional, broader scale not only local one. Moreover, you have attractive places too so it is a dual process of interaction. You would probably not disregard that matter if for example Austria had gaps in its motorway network with Slovenia. It is a whole chain and each European country takes part in one way or another in it.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 10:21 PM   #5986
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ASDT is used as an indicator, too, but it's not given the same weight as in countries where traffic might be much more seasonal in nature overall. The reason (IMO) is simple: at the end of the day, with or without seasonal traffic, a motorway has to make economic sense. If you build a motorway too early, before there is any real demand, you're just wasting money and making a loss when that money could be put into better alternatives. Worse still if you finance it through debt.

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It is not only about the mere tourism in Croatia, it is about constant opportunities to attract more traffic. The activities in Croatia, whatever they are, heavily depend on the infrastructure and nowadays a lot of countries in Western and Central Europe except Hungary go exactly through Slovenia in order to reach the eventual destinations in Croatia, provided people do not airplanes. It is about the potential of these roads which remain underestimated. If you are planning a fast road, you certainly do it for your own needs first but with the notion to make use of your geographical location and stimulate the capacity on a regional, broader scale not only local one. Moreover, you have attractive places too so it is a dual process of interaction. You would probably not disregard that matter if for example Austria had gaps in its motorway network with Slovenia. It is a whole chain and each European country takes part in one way or another in it.
Let's be fair, though. We are talking about 20-40 kilometre gaps here, nothing that would seriously affect Croatia's accessibility in terms of long-distance traffic. It's not like reaching the Baltic countries, where the gaps are substantial. If anything, border controls are potentially a much bigger issue, as were customs checks before Croatia joined the EU. Besides, the busiest route has a motorway link, as will the second busiest in a couple of years.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 11:12 PM   #5987
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I do not see the highway built on the Croatian side near Krapina(A2) or near Novigrad(A9), although you pay the highway. Also on the Hungarian side M70, or M86/E86. Should we complain?
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Old April 26th, 2016, 11:51 PM   #5988
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If you build a motorway too early, before there is any real demand, you're just wasting money
Don't tell Saudi Arabia.
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Old April 26th, 2016, 11:56 PM   #5989
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Or Croatia! They repay loans for motorways without any problems.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 12:16 AM   #5990
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Don't tell Saudi Arabia.
Let alone Cuba, Myanmar, North Korea and Turkmenistan.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.

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Old April 27th, 2016, 02:33 AM   #5991
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That is true, the Croatians have some remaining work to do with the difference that those missing elements are within the already built highways to the border itself while you haven't even started yet with yours. As I looked more carefully at the map, Zagreb-Maribor is definitely an important corridor while the same can not be said for the other road which has only a local meaning to the Istria peninsula. There is not a single motorway or expressway connection, however, from Bregana/Obrezje to the Adriatic Sea along the border and that is the main point. You haven't built Postojna-Rupa not because it won't carry traffic, on the contrary, the real reason is that the port of Koper which will lose its importance almost completely to that of Rijeka as a bigger port where the majority of ships will dock. Novo Mesto-Vinica-Bosiljevo is the other natural route which should have already been opened to service, going all the way north from Dalmatia around Ljubljana to Karavanke tunnel and Austria.
In the end, everybody has his own priorities, as far as I know Croatia will obviously focus on the Peljesac bridge and the connection of Dubrovnik with their A1.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 12:09 PM   #5992
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You haven't built Postojna-Rupa not because it won't carry traffic, on the contrary, the real reason is that the port of Koper which will lose its importance almost completely to that of Rijeka as a bigger port where the majority of ships will dock.
Yeah right? Port of Trieste and Venice have better road and rail links than Koper, not to speak of other Adriatic ports. Rijeka also has better connections, especially railway(two tracks, 22.5 t/axis all the way to Hungary), road D404. Koper port is good evidence, that is first necessary to fill existing capacity, then the construction of new ones. More than 60% of cargo coming into the port by railway. The highest priority of Slovenia's 1.4 billion € worth construction of the second track Divača-Koper before 2020.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 06:01 PM   #5993
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There is not a single motorway or expressway connection, however, from Bregana/Obrezje to the Adriatic Sea along the border and that is the main point.
There are motorways from Bregana/Obrežje to the Adriatic Sea in Slovenia and Croatia.

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You haven't built Postojna-Rupa not because it won't carry traffic, on the contrary, the real reason is that the port of Koper which will lose its importance almost completely to that of Rijeka as a bigger port where the majority of ships will dock.
Most of cargo gets to the port of Koper by train, even though the port of Rijeka is closer from all directions except Italy (which brings only 9% of traffic to Koper).


Perhaps it wouldn't be a bad idea to construct only a motorway Kozina-Rupa, which would be shorter and much cheaper than Postojna-Rupa, it would directly connect Trieste with Rijeka (as well as Koper with Rijeka), and connection between Ljubljana and Rijeka wouldn't be that bad either. Only Ilirska Bistrica would be against such an idea.

Last edited by Verso; April 27th, 2016 at 06:08 PM.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 06:44 PM   #5994
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Originally Posted by Solčavec View Post
I do not see the highway built on the Croatian side near Krapina(A2) or near Novigrad(A9), although you pay the highway. Also on the Hungarian side M70, or M86/E86. Should we complain?
so you are comparing this and this to this and this?



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Originally Posted by Solčavec View Post
Yeah right? Port of Trieste and Venice have better road and rail links than Koper, not to speak of other Adriatic ports. Rijeka also has better connections, especially railway(two tracks, 22.5 t/axis all the way to Hungary), road D404. Koper port is good evidence, that is first necessary to fill existing capacity, then the construction of new ones. More than 60% of cargo coming into the port by railway. The highest priority of Slovenia's 1.4 billion € worth construction of the second track Divača-Koper before 2020.
railroad Hungary - Rijeka has exactly 20 km of double track. so less than Koper. (and we both know that both Koper and Rijeka woul do anything just to get quality rail connection to Hungary, now, or in 1990es).
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Old April 27th, 2016, 07:39 PM   #5995
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Sorry it was my mistake, I meant possible highways across the border from Bregana/ Obrezje to the Adriatic Sea.

The pictures below show the port, rail (freight) and road infrastructure as part of the TEN-T network (RRT: rail-road terminal). I am sure you are familiar with that map and hope is clear now that it is not only about the naked tourism . If we take Munich, Vienna and Budapest as the nearest major transport destinations from Koper, it is only 10km more from Rijeka towards the first two locations but more than 30 minutes in travelling time. Budapest is served a bit better from Rijeka since you won't pass through Slovenia at all. The sea path, however, is about 50km more from the tip of Istria to Koper than to Rijeka.
You can build guys whatever you want in Slovenia but you can not hide the fact that the port of Rijeka is blocked from its fast access to the inner continental logistic destinations. Besides, if Koper is performing so well, what bothers you then to upgrade the missing 35km from Postojna to Rupa. It is just another source of money when the respective multimodal traffic is using your modern rail-road network.

Railways (freight), ports and RRTs


Roads, ports, RRTs and airports
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Old April 27th, 2016, 07:47 PM   #5996
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so you are comparing this and this to this and this?
No! You pay this sections in Croatia, and that is called robbery. Thank God that there are alternatives.

Everything indicates that we will have a full profile built much earlier(A4,H6/5) than Croatia. Except Jelšane/Rupa.

Last edited by Solčavec; April 27th, 2016 at 08:37 PM.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 07:58 PM   #5997
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Why are we having the same troll debate every few months? Some random guy just poping up saying how SLO taxpayers should provide cheap transit and build motorways that don't repay. I mean... WTF?
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Old April 27th, 2016, 08:05 PM   #5998
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A never ending story for our forum. I think the only solution is that Slovenia must finally build all requested motorways asap .
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old April 27th, 2016, 08:22 PM   #5999
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A1 near Vrhnika, today.
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Old April 27th, 2016, 08:42 PM   #6000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roaddor View Post
You can build guys whatever you want in Slovenia but you can not hide the fact that the port of Rijeka is blocked from its fast access to the inner continental logistic destinations.
By road yes, by rail no (at least not more than Koper).

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Besides, if Koper is performing so well, what bothers you then to upgrade the missing 35km from Postojna to Rupa. It is just another source of money when the respective multimodal traffic is using your modern rail-road network.
Again: lack of traffic. But if you think we should build motorways to Croatia so that the port of Rijeka can have more traffic, that's outright crazy. Do you think Italians should build a high-speed railway to Slovenia so that the port of Koper can take traffic from Italian ports? Do you think they are so altruistic? They will build it when there is demand for it.

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