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Old December 8th, 2017, 05:29 PM   #6501
italystf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by threo2k View Post
I remember driving through Maribor down to croatia in the 2003-2004 year and the A4 was under construction, why has it taken so long time to construct the A4 ?
A4 Maribor-Ptuj opened a while ago. The section Ptuj-HR was started later.
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Old December 8th, 2017, 11:23 PM   #6502
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Quote:
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I remember driving through Maribor down to croatia in the 2003-2004 year and the A4 was under construction
They started constructing the A4 only in 2007, so I don't know what you saw.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 08:38 PM   #6503
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Originally Posted by threo2k View Post
... why has it taken so long time to construct the A4 ?
Slovenia does not want to build motorways purely for tourists. That's why the A4 has ended at Ptuj so far. Increasing traffic figures and thus more and more pressure on local residents, constant traffic jam in the summer led to a rethinking in Slovenia. The last few kilometres were literally stomped out of the ground for the last 2 years.

OT:
I do not understand why they insist on the overpriced prices for the badge. If you drive on the country roads near Maribor-Lenart in summer you can see 80% of holiday-makers license plates on the vehicles. 7€ for two weeks would be appropriate. 15€ for one month. This would reduce diversionary traffic to a minimum.
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Old December 9th, 2017, 09:19 PM   #6504
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The traffic jams won't be completely eliminated with the opening of A4 though, as the border remains a bottleneck.

I do agree that the Slovenian vignette is a bit expensive, especially given the volume of short distance trips through Slovenia.

But the whole point of a vignette is to get as much money out of foreigners as possible. The share of revenue from foreigners is significantly higher than the share of kilometers they drive.
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Old December 10th, 2017, 03:34 AM   #6505
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Slovenia does not want to build motorways purely for tourists.
For tourists to other countries, to be precise (in this case Croatia). Although the A4 won't be just a tourist road.
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Old December 12th, 2017, 01:24 AM   #6506
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Rettungsgasse is a commonplace for decades on Austrian and German motorways.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rettungsgasse

Since 1st of January 2012 in Austria, so not really "decades" .. (only 0.5 decades)

And the usefulness of it is still debated, initial studies have not shown a significant improvement for emergency vehicles, compared to using the emergency lane.
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Old December 12th, 2017, 01:30 AM   #6507
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I do agree that the Slovenian vignette is a bit expensive, especially given the volume of short distance trips through Slovenia.

Also for the size of the network, if you'd compute a "price per available km", Slovenia would rank rather high up on the countries that have a Vignette..
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Old December 12th, 2017, 02:20 AM   #6508
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The primary concern when designing the pricing tiers was to ensure financial stability for Dars. Since vignettes discriminate against short-term users by default, it was only a question of what combination ensures that revenues from toll collection remain stable without inflating the price of the yearly sticker too much. While not apparent to motorists passing through the country, vignettes have had an enormous impact on road safety by diverting traffic off regional roads onto safer motorways and reducing the burden of traffic in towns along these roads.
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Old December 12th, 2017, 10:21 AM   #6509
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A landslide has closed the border crossing Gruškovje with Croatia (Maribor-Zagreb).
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Old December 13th, 2017, 12:23 AM   #6510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Also for the size of the network, if you'd compute a "price per available km", Slovenia would rank rather high up on the countries that have a Vignette..
This isn't unimportant, but "price per motorway density" is even more important.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 11:08 AM   #6511
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The primary concern when designing the pricing tiers was to ensure financial stability for Dars. Since vignettes discriminate against short-term users by default, it was only a question of what combination ensures that revenues from toll collection remain stable without inflating the price of the yearly sticker too much. While not apparent to motorists passing through the country, vignettes have had an enormous impact on road safety by diverting traffic off regional roads onto safer motorways and reducing the burden of traffic in towns along these roads.

Just to be clear - I don't oppose the idea of the vignette in general, I think it is the way better model compared to per-km pricing for exact that reason - people actually do use the motorway much more, and don't still use unsafe national roads clogging the main roads of villages.

I just think that compared to other countries, the Slovenian vignette (both short term as well as annual) is more expensive, in absolute as well as in relative (GDP, size of network, ...) levels.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 12:00 PM   #6512
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Yes, they are not cheap but at least they are not financed by the state budget as in many other countries and the money is needed to build new motorways and improve the existing ones. A4 (primary built for foreign transit) is not bankable project and it will hinder the future DARS projects - the vignette won't payoff this motorway. I'd also like to point out the damage that summer holiday migrations impose on the local economy. Good are blocked and people are having hard time getting to work. And to be honest, nobody is forcing people to use Slovenian motorways.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 12:13 PM   #6513
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Keep in mind that vignette revenue is a small part of motorway investment. So even with vignettes, works are always financed for a large part by state budget.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 12:21 PM   #6514
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I'd also like to point out the damage that summer holiday migrations impose on the local economy. Good are blocked and people are having hard time getting to work. And to be honest, nobody is forcing people to use Slovenian motorways.
But having that summer migration on motorways is surely better than having summer migrations on secondary roads through Slovenian towns and villages?

There is a true point by Rudiwien that the Slovenian vignette is fairly expensive compared to other countries. It is 50% more expensive than the vignettes in Austria, Hungary and Slovakia, while there are likely more short-distance trips than in those countries.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 12:57 PM   #6515
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@g.spinoza, Slovenian budget is not financing DARS projects, but it is true that vignettes are only a smaller part DARS revenue (around 30-35% IIRC).

@ChrisZwolle, I don't agree that the taxpayers should be subsidising summer migrations. It's already damaging enough and cheap vignettes would make things even worse: more jams & loss revenue/number of users.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #6516
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All gastarbajters can ride around our small and "expensive" country through Hungary or other countries. We do not care and we do not need you!!

Last edited by Sevina; December 13th, 2017 at 04:34 PM.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 04:52 PM   #6517
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We will lower the price of vignettes when Croatia, Italy and Austria(tunnels) will lower the prices of its damn expensive tolls. I hope to soon introduce a single system for the whole EU.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:28 PM   #6518
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Just to be clear - I don't oppose the idea of the vignette in general, I think it is the way better model compared to per-km pricing for exact that reason - people actually do use the motorway much more, and don't still use unsafe national roads clogging the main roads of villages.

I just think that compared to other countries, the Slovenian vignette (both short term as well as annual) is more expensive, in absolute as well as in relative (GDP, size of network, ...) levels.
I agree that short-term vignettes are expensive (then again so is the yearly vignette). My point was that short-term vignette pricing was not the main consideration and was in effect the casualty of two conditions: Dars' finances had to remain sound and the yearly vignette had to cost a still-bearable amount of money for the average Slovenian voter. The value proposition of short-term vignettes could only improve at the expense of one or both of the two conditions and thus we ended up with the current framework.

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Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Keep in mind that vignette revenue is a small part of motorway investment. So even with vignettes, works are always financed for a large part by state budget.
The state does not finance Dars or the motorways at all. Motorway construction is financed through debt held by Dars and guaranteed for by the state. The debt is in turn repaid exclusively from tolls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is a true point by Rudiwien that the Slovenian vignette is fairly expensive compared to other countries. It is 50% more expensive than the vignettes in Austria, Hungary and Slovakia, while there are likely more short-distance trips than in those countries.
It would be interesting to see the data on that. I would be inclined to agree but at the same time I suspect that the share of traffic generated by summer tourists heading to Croatia is probably overestimated. We all like to complain about the summer tourist traffic but our network as a whole is generally quite congested year-round.
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Old December 13th, 2017, 06:56 PM   #6519
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In Germany, the share of foreign passenger cars on their total mileage is only 5%. However, the proposed vignette in Germany would make foreigners pay 25% of the gross toll revenue. In Switzerland, the foreign cars are responsible for 9% of travel but 36% of vignette revenue.

I don't have an issue for paying for infrastructure through vignettes. I think it's fair that foreign users also contribute to the cost of building and maintaining that infrastructure. However it should be a reasonable contribution. It's easy to target foreigners, the population would generally not disapprove and foreigners can't complain by voting. It's either 'pay up or don't come at all'.
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Old December 14th, 2017, 01:42 AM   #6520
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Originally Posted by rudiwien View Post
Just to be clear - I don't oppose the idea of the vignette in general, I think it is the way better model compared to per-km pricing for exact that reason - people actually do use the motorway much more, and don't still use unsafe national roads clogging the main roads of villages.

I just think that compared to other countries, the Slovenian vignette (both short term as well as annual) is more expensive, in absolute as well as in relative (GDP, size of network, ...) levels.
yes,
so what?
Fly or drive through Hungary.

In Croatia you pay 8€ to drive 50km in Istria. Do you see me complaining all the time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Keep in mind that vignette revenue is a small part of motorway investment. So even with vignettes, works are always financed for a large part by state budget.
state only gives guarantees for DARS debt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But having that summer migration on motorways is surely better than having summer migrations on secondary roads through Slovenian towns and villages?

There is a true point by Rudiwien that the Slovenian vignette is fairly expensive compared to other countries. It is 50% more expensive than the vignettes in Austria, Hungary and Slovakia, while there are likely more short-distance trips than in those countries.
One option, is to inspect every car on the border. If you have to wait 10h to cross you will use other means.
If we are being hypothetical here.

How much do you pay for tolls in France?
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
In Germany, the share of foreign passenger cars on their total mileage is only 5%. However, the proposed vignette in Germany would make foreigners pay 25% of the gross toll revenue. In Switzerland, the foreign cars are responsible for 9% of travel but 36% of vignette revenue.

I don't have an issue for paying for infrastructure through vignettes. I think it's fair that foreign users also contribute to the cost of building and maintaining that infrastructure. However it should be a reasonable contribution. It's easy to target foreigners, the population would generally not disapprove and foreigners can't complain by voting. It's either 'pay up or don't come at all'.
It is definitely more than that. It is fairly common to see foreign license plates all around the country. Especially compared to Germany, where there are extremely rare.

Last edited by Shenkey; December 14th, 2017 at 01:49 AM.
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