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Old June 25th, 2011, 07:39 PM   #2121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrAkumana View Post
Between 2008 and 2010 several motorways around a 25 km radious from the Barcelona municipality were given an absurd 80 km/h speed limit (they had originally 120 km/h or 100 km/h speed limits). -AP-7 was originally set to have also a 80km/h speed limit but was later left outside the plan-
Thanks. I remember to have read the news about speed reductions back then repeated ad nauseaum in many "anti-car" blogs, some exaggerating it as if whole Catalunia had adopted 80km/h limit and some even cited plans for 60km/h limits on urban freeways. Bogus, of couse.,
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Old June 25th, 2011, 11:18 PM   #2122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicerón View Post
I remember going from Logroño to Zaragoza on the AP-68 (then simply A-68) at 180 km/h and being surpassed by 2 Civil Guard motorbikes.
WTF?! And they stopped you?

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Originally Posted by Cicerón View Post
Regarding first-generation autovías: A-1 from Somosierra tunnel to Burgos, A-2, A-3/A-31 & A-4 in Castile-La Mancha are under refurbishment righ now.
Theoricaly ... the A-42 also is going to be refurbished but they are only improving some streches that are not among the worse of the road... I think that they have other (expensiver) plans for this motorway and they are waiting to be able to afford it...
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Old June 26th, 2011, 10:51 AM   #2123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
WTF?! And they stopped you?
Nope, that's the point. Everybody was driving >150 km/h and nobody cared, not even the Civil Guards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
Theoricaly ... the A-42 also is going to be refurbished but they are only improving some streches that are not among the worse of the road... I think that they have other (expensiver) plans for this motorway and they are waiting to be able to afford it...
But the A-42, although it is going to be refurbished, is not part of the same plan. The plan I was talking about is being financed through public-private partnership (shadow toll or peaje en sombra in Spanish).

This means that a company pays the refurbishment, then the Government gives a quantity of money to the company for every car that uses the motorway. Therefore there's no problem with the money, in fact the company wants to finish the road works fast so that it can start receiving money as soon as possible.

Here you have more info: http://www.urbanity.es/foro/infraest...eneracion.html
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Old June 26th, 2011, 11:05 AM   #2124
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
130 km/h is too fast for nearly all older generation Autovías. Sure, you can drive 130 or faster when you're almost alone on the road, but it's unsafe when traffic becomes heavier. 130 km/h could work on Autopistas and newer generation Autovías on the Meseta.
Are you all sure this is not safe to move 130 kilometers per hour?

http://maps.google.es/maps?q=trijueq...18.07,,0,13.71
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Old June 26th, 2011, 11:17 AM   #2125
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Why do you think that section is limited at 100 km/h?
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Old June 26th, 2011, 12:23 PM   #2126
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I guess it's because the carriageway going to Madrid is part of the old N-II and has a change of gradient in that point, while the new carriageway is totally flat.

http://goo.gl/zU0iz

After some meters there is a 120 sign again: http://goo.gl/kiY0u
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Old June 26th, 2011, 04:43 PM   #2127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicerón View Post
But the A-42, although it is going to be refurbished, is not part of the same plan. The plan I was talking about is being financed through public-private partnership (shadow toll or peaje en sombra in Spanish).
I mentioned A-42 because its similarities with the A-X ones (1st generation, radial, heavy traffic and high density of traffic) but you are right, it's not the same plan.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 12:04 PM   #2128
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Questions about local road in Aragón/Pirineos area

Next week I'm travelling to Spain from Italy to San Sebástian/Donostia, Zaragoza, Monte Perdido and Andorra.

I have some questions should anyone have some info to help me:

1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?

2) From Bisca I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?

3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suret? Is that road jammed because it is summer?

Thanks for any answer
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Old June 28th, 2011, 12:30 PM   #2129
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I believe it was shown on this thread once that that sector N-260 is hardly worth the status of Carretera Nacional.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 02:02 PM   #2130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Next week I'm travelling to Spain from Italy to San Sebástian/Donostia, Zaragoza, Monte Perdido and Andorra.

I have some questions should anyone have some info to help me:

1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?
No need to go to Huesca. Fastest way is San Sebastián - Pamplona - Jaca - Sabiñánigo.

A little part of it is a motorway and the rest, a normal road. There are major civil works to finish the motorway (very slowly) but you will not have traffic problems in that way.
Road between Huesca and Sabiñánigo is in the same situation, part of it motorway (last two km. opened in march), and the rest of it on works (or... still pending to start on works).



Quote:
2) From Bisca I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?
VERY IMPORTANT

In all GPS programs, as well as google maps and all main maps it appears as opened a road between Sabiñánigo and Fiscal.
DO NOT TAKE IT
It will be opened next January after twelve years on works... but still not finished.

Road between Sabiñánigo and Biescas is OK but Biescas to Torla is narrow.

But... there is no other alternative.

If summer or high season, at Torla you must park your car in a parking at the entrance (very big, no problem) and take a bus from Torla to the finish of the road inside National Park (one bus every 15 minutes).


Quote:
3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suret? Is that road jammed because it is summer?

Thanks for any answer
N-260 between Campo and Castejon de Sos has been considered as the worst road of the major network at Spain (national road). There is a thread about that. I think that says all.
Ainsa-Campo, N-260 is perfect but Castejón de Sos-El Pont de Suert is very bad too.

Should you have to go from Ainsa to Andorra la Vella I will recommend you to make:

Ainsa-N-123 (indicated as secondary road but sure, better than other ones. 100 km/h available in most of itinerary).
Get N-123 trhough Benabarre-Viella.
At Benabarre turn right through Lleida (N-230)
At N-230 just when incoming Cataluña turn left between Alfarras and Balaguer.
At Balaguer you have the main road Lleida-Andorra. Just through on.


should you have any more questions about roads at central Pyrenees I would recommend you to post the question here
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...37639&page=154

It is the specific forum for that region, and the thread is the used for roads.

All messages you will see in Spanish but no problem writting in English. Many of us will be able to answer you.

Maybe you can get the chance and ask further information as far as it is the specific forum and most of people who enter there live closed to that area.


Good luck
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Old June 28th, 2011, 02:07 PM   #2131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
VERY IMPORTANT

In all GPS programs, as well as google maps and all main maps it appears as opened a road between Sabiñánigo and Fiscal.
DO NOT TAKE IT
It will be opened next January after twelve years on works... but still not finished.

Road between Sabiñánigo and Biescas is OK but Biescas to Torla is narrow.

But... there is no other alternative.
In my Garmin device, and also in Google Maps, there is no direct route from Sabiñanigo to Fiscal other than the one through Biescas-Torla.

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Sa...Gg&mra=ls&z=11
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Old June 28th, 2011, 02:16 PM   #2132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Next week I'm travelling to Spain from Italy to San Sebástian/Donostia, Zaragoza, Monte Perdido and Andorra.

I have some questions should anyone have some info to help me:

1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?`
In fact the works consist in the conversion of this road into a free motorway (autovía). This part is just a mountain pass and the new autovía has brand new tunnels. maybe you'll find some small retentions, some small detours and some temporal speed limits. From my point of view it isn'y enough to avoid this route. The worst situation was in winter sunday evenings when everybody was returning from the skiing resrots to Zaragoza and Madrid using that route.


Quote:
2) From Biescas I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?
Ordesa is a National Park, not a village. You won't have the chance of drive in that road if you go in summer. I don't know the exact dates but from June to late september more or less you have to park your car in abig parking in Torla and then take a free (or almost free) shuttle bus to Ordesa. Ordesa is probably one of the most beautiful natural spaces in Spain. It's really worth to visit it and spend at least some hours enough to reach the "cola de caballo" waterfall. That route is very beatiful and could be done in one day. It's even more interesting if you take the "senda de los cazadores" (hunter's path) and climb to nice views pont wher you can see the whoe Ordesa Valley, even the "brecha de Roland" rock.

Anyway you can check the status of that road here:
http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll=...&cbp=12,0,,0,0

As you can see it doesn't seem very bad.

The traffic restirction is to preserve the natural park.

Quote:
3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suert? Is that road jammed because it is summer?

Thanks for any answer
Yes I've drove many times, mainly in the summer.

It's a national road, but it's not a major route.

The first part from Ainsa to Campo is really good, taking into account that we tal k about a mountain road.

Take a look
http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll=...62.01,,0,-4.09

The second part is the worst between Campo and Castejón de Sos.

The road uses a narrow pass between the river and the cliffs and the road is very narrow. Anyway you only have to drive carefully and check if you find a lorry in front of you to find the best place to make the crossing. Look:
http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll=...1,106,,0,-9.77

Finally the last part between Castejón and Pont de Suert is a typical medium mountain pass with low traffic, even in summer, take a look:

http://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll=...124.3,,0,-1.32

If you're planning going from Ainsa to Andorra non stop, maybe this is not the best route. In that case it will be better doing the following:
http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=ain...0&via=1,2&z=10

It's 30 km more, but the route is much better.

If you keep your plans I suggest you the following:
-Visit the Ainsa Village, it's upper part keeps all the tastes of a Medieval town.
-Visit the Eastern part of the Ordesa Part, The Añisclo Canyon, you can drive (only one way) and discover a very nice Pyrean canyon.
-Visit the Gistaín Valley and the Posets Natural Park
-Practice Rafting (there dozens of companies) and ride the brave waters of the Esera river between Campo and Santa Liestra.
-Overpassing the Benasque Valley is a big mistake. It's probably the most beatoful valley in the Pirynees and it has the highest peaks.
-Near el Pont de Suert there's a road that take you to the villages of Boi and Taull. The pre-romanic churches are worth to visit.
-Just folwoing that road you'll reach the Estany de Sant Maurici National Park which is also worth to visit.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 02:18 PM   #2133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
In my Garmin device, and also in Google Maps, there is no direct route from Sabiñanigo to Fiscal other than the one through Biescas-Torla.

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Sa...Gg&mra=ls&z=11
Lucky you, 4 years ago My TOMTOM took me there and I have to drive back again to Sabiñánigo.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 02:34 PM   #2134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
1) ViaMichelin maps lists a large sector of N330 between Huesca and Sabinágio as "autovias en obras". Is it really a big work site with many retention and detours or not?

2) From Bisca I'm heading east to Torla, then north on A136 up to a small village called Ordesa. This road is partially marked as "in bad state of maintenance". Chances are small, but does anyone here ever drove that sector, listed as scenic on the maps?

3) Has anyone ever driven on N260 between Ainsa and Port de Suret? Is that road jammed because it is summer?
Alserrod has already answered this, but I have to write some more things.
1. Are you going to Zaragoza? If not, then follow the route that has already been mentioned. If you go to Zaragoza, then when you go to the Pyrenees you shouldn't miss Huesca. We have some things to see. E07 North of Nueno is still a road, but as said motorway is on works except on the canyon just South of Arguis and just South of Sabiñánigo (You misspelled that).

2. Again, you misspelled Biescas. And you confused A-135 with A-136, which is further West, and goes to the French border at Portalet. There is no village called Ordesa, there's only a parking and a restaurant at the end of A-135, and you can only go there by bus from Torla in summer (This has already been mentioned). And you should go hiking to the Cola de Caballo (Horse's tail), it's a beautiful waterfall.

3. I have clinched all the N-260 in my province (And all the way to la Seu d'Urgell, and then some more in Girona province). As said, from L'Ainsa (Aragonese name ) to Campo it has been renovated, and then to Pont de Suert, already in Catalonia, I would say that road shouldn't be a national road, it's the worst national road in Spain, so it's better to go via A-138, N-123, N-230, C-26 and C-14 to N-260 near la Seu d'Urgell, as said.

BTW, on the Aragonese roads & motorways thread we are now at page 192 (That link is for page 154).
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Old June 28th, 2011, 03:35 PM   #2135
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Hey guys, thank you all very much for all feeback. I'll later check that thread, I can read Spanish for most of it, but not write it (I speak Italian and Portuguese, so that helps).

I want to take N260 because it is a mountain road! I love mountain passes, the twists and so. But I like to know what I'm going to face ahead, specially in regard of recent work/traffic.

We just update our plans, added 3 days to our trip. This is where I'm going to drive in Spain:

Donostia-Zaragoza: instead of going via A5/AP15, we'll leave very early, taking N121-A out of Irún. Then, we'll branch off in Bera, than Sare (France), then, back on N121-B to Elizondo and Berroeta, then N121-A again to Pamplona, taking the highway to Zaragoza arriving late at night there and stay for 2 days. We want to drive through some more remote Basque areas, and that seemed a good route.

Zaragoza-Monte Perdido: we'll go to Biscas, Torla and enter the park and enjoy it for the day, spendind the night in Torla. Next day, I'll take pedro's suggestion of the Añisclo Canyon via Fanlo. Then we're headed to Bielsa and Monte Perdido. The next day we'll stay there and visit some other remote spots by hiking or smth.

Monte Perdido - Andorra: we'll take A138, N260 and A139 until its end. But not rafting. We'll sleep at Benasque. The following day, we take N260, than N230 to Vielhas, then C28 and C13 to Liavorsí crossing Paso Bonaigua, from where we'll enter the valley up to Tavascan, stop in some remote villages to check them out, and go to Sort. Next day we take N260 again and go to Andorra. So it will be a lot of fun, I hope, as we're leaving Thursday after these last-minute changes. I couldn't find online info on Paso Bonaigua, but I assume it is open already (Michelin says it closes December-March) despite the harsh European winter.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 03:42 PM   #2136
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I like your program.... i love mountain roads too, but not many people does. A few years ago I made the trip from Bielsa to Andorra via Vielha and Sort. it's very interesting.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 03:47 PM   #2137
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And another thing, we use dashes: A-23, N-240, etc. We use they even on Euroroutes, like E-07, but I prefer to write E07, as it is.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 03:59 PM   #2138
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I'll take the opportunity to ask you guys some tips about Spanish roads, since as Suburbanist I'm planning my trip to Spain, next September. My plan draft is:

- Follow all the AP-7 from French border to Alicante then A-7/A-91/A-92 to Granada;
- Basically roam Andalucia, with bases in Granada, then Cadiz and then Sevilla, with blitz into Portugal (maybe Faro) and Gibraltar.
- going back through Merida, Madrid, Zaragoza, Lleida, Andorra.

Do you have any advice (roads to avoid due to roadworks or probable tailbacks?)

Thanks!
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Old June 28th, 2011, 04:36 PM   #2139
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Please don't beat my 4645.5 kilometer mark on Spanish roads! I'm leading right now. But I believe you will make only ~3500 km. Right now there are roadworks on E90 between Calatayud and Zaragoza, so it's better to go on N-234 to Daroca, then A-1508 to Romanos and get into A-23 there to Zaragoza.
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Old June 28th, 2011, 04:46 PM   #2140
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Quote:
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Please don't beat my 4645.5 kilometer mark on Spanish roads! .
What do you mean?
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