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Old August 20th, 2011, 09:53 PM   #2301
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Old August 21st, 2011, 01:09 PM   #2302
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A-66, the missing part!!!!


Spanish government has put on a public concurrence the construction of motorway A-66 between Benavente and Zamora. Today it is possible to do this route even by road or having a little tour, by other motorways.

With this part of A-66, there will be a direct motorway (partially on toll) from Gijon, in the northern coast to Cadiz, in the southern coast, being a north-south motorway more or less half way from Madrid to Lisbon.

The name of this motorway is "Silver Route" (Ruta de la plata). Why this name??. There was an old Roman road called with the same name!!!! They only use the name put 20 centuries ago.


http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_...O/11081904.htm
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Old August 21st, 2011, 01:26 PM   #2303
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As you probably know I'm planning my Spanish vacation, so I started looking for autovias and autopistas and it's a big huge mess. For instance, is AP-46 north of Malaga completed? Google maps says it is, but Spanish wikipedia says it will be opened on 31 October.
And why so many non tolled autovias follow the same route of tolled autopistas? Isn't that a waste of resources that could be better used, say, for a Cordoba-Talavera de la Reina link, or a Madrid-east into A-23?
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Old August 22nd, 2011, 02:11 AM   #2304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
As you probably know I'm planning my Spanish vacation, so I started looking for autovias and autopistas and it's a big huge mess. For instance, is AP-46 north of Malaga completed? Google maps says it is, but Spanish wikipedia says it will be opened on 31 October.
Yeah, it will be opened in that date.
Here it is a news from a local newspaper link

http://www.eldiadecordoba.es/article...a/octubre.html



Quote:
And why so many non tolled autovias follow the same route of tolled autopistas?
Nowadays they will build small toll-motorways.
Reason?. They are a private business and the network is full.

Should an entreprise wants to build a new one they will choose the strecht with more potential traffic, nevertheless where it is.
This is... maybe because mountains make difficult for a motorway and they want to invest in a new motorway, maybe because there is a lot of traffic and some cars will choose to pay toll and be able to avoid congestions (for examples, new short ones near Madrid).



Quote:
Isn't that a waste of resources that could be better used, say, for a Cordoba-Talavera de la Reina link, or a Madrid-east into A-23?
The case of linking to A-23 is a "special case". It is considered until Teruel, but built only until Cuenca.

At the begininig of 2008 an environment study decided that route proposed was not acceptable. Ministry "hide" the study for eight months (enough to pass the next general elections) and said that they had to find a new alternative.
There were too many demonstrations and they said that alternative to A-40 was the own A-40... they said they could start to built those streches with no environmental problems and the proposed a new route for the most difficult one.

Ministry said that it was a "full project" and they will not start until all was accepted from the environment point of view (first time they said that in Spain).

Four years later... nothing moved in that corner. A lot of promises but nothing else.


Should you want to have an alternative way from Barcelona/Tarragona to Madrid by the inside country, I can propose you a different route. Few motorways but no traffic and a different view!.
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Old August 22nd, 2011, 09:53 AM   #2305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Nowadays they will build small toll-motorways.
Reason?. They are a private business and the network is full.

Should an entreprise wants to build a new one they will choose the strecht with more potential traffic, nevertheless where it is.
I see but... shouldn't the State have the last word? Shouldn't they say "no, we don't need another motorway here, there's already one"?

Quote:
Should you want to have an alternative way from Barcelona/Tarragona to Madrid by the inside country, I can propose you a different route. Few motorways but no traffic and a different view!.
Thanks, but due to short time I changed some of my plans and probably will not drive in Madrid anymore, nor to Andorra. My idea for coming back now is to go from Sevilla to Valencia, sleep there, and the next day all the way Valencia-Brescia.
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Old August 22nd, 2011, 01:06 PM   #2306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
I see but... shouldn't the State have the last word? Shouldn't they say "no, we don't need another motorway here, there's already one"?
No because different reasons:

- First motorways were built when no ones existed Almost all of them toll ones and they took in most cases little streches were profitability was sure). 15 years later started opened the first free ones... and they became the differences. Why should I have to pay for a motorway in that direction and shouldn't in the other direction?. Since then only small cases have been built and in most of cases as an alternative to heavy traffic.

- ALL entreprises will accept a business (like a toll motorway) only profitability is assured. The network at Spain makes that all motorways with intense traffic are made and the ones that are being on works or project are more for better communications, safety on road, etc... It will be difficult to find a new motorway with characteristics able for that profitability


In my region, the Aragonese government asked for the ARA-A-1 motorway. It is "shadow toll" (driver pays nothing and regional government will pay a fix and variable cost for 30 years to the entreprise who built it and makes maintenance).
It is a only 6 km motorway but a motorway that connects both sides of a river without any other bridge in 45 km before this opening three years ago.

Drivers do not pay anything... and traffic is only half than considered... and entreprise requires a different formula for paying because with these numbers they will never recover investment (and we do not talk about profits)



Quote:
Thanks, but due to short time I changed some of my plans and probably will not drive in Madrid anymore, nor to Andorra. My idea for coming back now is to go from Sevilla to Valencia, sleep there, and the next day all the way Valencia-Brescia.
From Sevilla to Valencia go A-4 to Manzanares (I was living in that town for two years and those roads I know) and take A-43 through Valencia.
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Old August 22nd, 2011, 01:19 PM   #2307
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Thanks, it's the route I was planning to drive. Also a brief stop at Cordoba is planned.
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Old August 22nd, 2011, 02:36 PM   #2308
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Anyway... should you want to have a rest, you can think in leaving your car at Barcelona and taking a train to Malaga. Journey is 5h 30 min aprox...
Should you can use public transport... it is difficult to do faster.

At Valencia, take care if high season. You can find more traffic congestion than at Madrid.
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Old August 22nd, 2011, 02:44 PM   #2309
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Valencia-Barcelona, I recommend you this way. You will use a lot of free motorways (and some cases with roads with no traffic).
As you will see, there are parts where I recommend to use AP-7 (interesting to pay toll because no fast alternative) and parts where I recommend to use a different way (there are alternatives and toll can be saves)


http://maps.google.es/maps?saddr=pat...5&vpsrc=6&z=12
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Old August 22nd, 2011, 02:55 PM   #2310
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Thanks, maybe I will use the tolled road one way and the free alternative you suggested the way back
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Old August 23rd, 2011, 12:29 PM   #2311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
A-2 (Madrid-Zaragoza-Barcelona-border with France) near La Muela
I put the same photo earlier on the same page!

I have clinched new sections on last days. I have photos of A-15 between Andoain and Irurzun, the so-called Leizarán motorway. And I've found a 2+1 road, I though there was no 2+1 roads in Spain but N-121-A is!

And yesterday riding my bike I made a detour only to see the new signage they are putting on E07. They have to replace signs every 10 years or so, but I believe some signs where there for almost 20 years!
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Old August 24th, 2011, 05:19 AM   #2312
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Some toll motorways are there just to people who wants to avoid traffic jams... and others follow more secure routes (less curves i.e.).
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Old August 24th, 2011, 10:53 AM   #2313
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Almost all built after year 2.000
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Old August 24th, 2011, 10:59 AM   #2314
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alserrod you told me earlier that many tolled motorways are being built near the non tolled ones because enterprises choose routes with maximum possible financial gain.

But am I correct saying that the non-tolled A-7 is being built alongside the already existent Ap-7? In this case it's the other way around.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:15 AM   #2315
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Yes... and not only in the A-7 but there are not too many cases.

The reason is that all citizens ask for free motorways for all... easy to understand (why he doesn't pay for this traject and I have to pay for this one because no alternative?).

There was a bad plan for motorways (starting with all toll ones, continuing with roads updated to motorways, building better free motorways and later both motorways in specific zones and new motorways to complete the network... that is a resume of the Motorway construction History...).

For the cases of no alternative there are two options. Build a free one (used if heavy traffic) and everyone will choose or "buy" the motorway to the entreprise.

The second option seems to be the most simple... but only used in little parts (seems to be political reasons and negotiations).


A-7 is one case, but on A-68 the Navarra government made 40 km of motorway in his territory.

i.e. At Valencia, enterprisers made a dossier about bussiness relations and in fact there are some many to Madrid than to Barcelona... and distance to Madrid is a bit longer.

But... Motorway to Madrid is free and to Barcelona isn't (you can try with the alternative I posted). And to Madrid there is high speed train (1h40m) and to Barcelona there isn't (3h being less distance)
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:38 AM   #2316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
My idea for coming back now is to go from Sevilla to Valencia, sleep there, and the next day all the way Valencia-Brescia.
You're on holiday, right? Then why not drive from Valencia to Barcelona, do some sightseeing there, and then take the ferry from Barcelona to Genova, and then drive home. Valencia to Brescia in one day is a challenge, even for my standards...
I don't know how much the ferry costs, but taking Spanish, French and Italian tolls plus fuel into account, it may be worth it.

Although I did do Magedeburg to Valencia in one day and night twice...
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:44 AM   #2317
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Yes I'm on holiday. Barcelona-Genova by ferry can be an option, in fact nothing is still decided yet. I don't like ferries though, I took one from Civitavecchia to Cagliari, it took 10 hours during which I was so boooored.

The original idea is to travel back to Brescia not through south France but taking A7 at Avignon and then driving towards Grenoble-Frejus-Torino-Milano-Brescia. I never drove any of those road, it's just slightly longer than the Provençale (30km or so) and I have the chance to see some beautiful mountains.

But it depends on how I feel after the first Brescia-Valencia trip
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:49 AM   #2318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Yes I'm on holiday. Barcelona-Genova by ferry can be an option, in fact nothing is still decided yet. I don't like ferries though, I took one from Civitavecchia to Cagliari, it took 10 hours during which I was so boooored.

The original idea is to travel back to Brescia not through south France but taking A7 at Avignon and then driving towards Grenoble-Frejus-Torino-Milano-Brescia. I never drove any of those road, it's just slightly longer than the Provençale (30km or so) and I have the chance to see some beautiful mountains.

But it depends on how I feel after the first Brescia-Valencia trip
As long as you're aware that there are more tolls to pay in France going that route, and for the Frejus Tunnel alone you pay more then 40 euros. There might be an overnight ferry - in which case you can get your own cabin. Get a couple of beers or wines behind you, and go to sleep. And you even had a good day in Barcelona, or on one of the beaches surrounding Barcelona.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:53 AM   #2319
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Yes I know about the tolls. But I guess the ferry will take forever, way longer than the car, to get to Genova...

EDIT: Just looked at the prices: 350€ Barcelona-Genoa, 18h trip. No f*king way

Last edited by g.spinoza; August 24th, 2011 at 12:00 PM.
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Old August 24th, 2011, 11:59 AM   #2320
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http://www.directferries.co.uk/barcelona_ferry.htm
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