daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 11th, 2011, 11:33 PM   #2441
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
In the other corner of the island, the town of La Restinga (the southern town of Spain) has started to be evacuated today.


About this disaster, I link a thread
http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1445942

It is in Spanish, in the Canary sub-forum, but with google translator you will find some curious details.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 11th, 2011, 11:52 PM   #2442
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Well, we have tons of prefixes . With the completion of the new E15 around Málaga (The so-called "Hiperronda", literally hyperbypass), there will be both MA-20 and Ma-20 signed, the later one in Palma on Majorca island.

And we have two A-231s, the motorway from León to Burgos which shares designation with a road in Northeastern Teruel province.


I agree... and "try" to explain.

The "prefix" of the road or motorway "tries" to explain the administration that manage the road.

There are some generalities:

- State roads start by A if motorway (autopista), by AP if tolled motorway (autopista de peaje), by N if road (carretera nacional), by R for the 4 tolled motorways near Madrid (autopista radial) and motorways near any city start by his "letters". In that way, if it is a province capital, they use them, if not, they have prepared some of them (for example, GJ for Gijón)

- Regional roads start by a letter that "should" indicate the administration, but there is not a concrete procedure. A can be Aragon or Andalucia (Asturias uses AS). CA is Cantabria (C is Cataluña).
Furthermore... as I said, M-30 is managed by the municipality of Madrid. M-40 and M-50 are managed by the ministry of civil works and M-45 by the region. Sometimes you need to have a look to pannels to notices that.

- Islands uses an own prefix. Mallorca: MA. Menorca: ME, Ibiza: EI (not sure), Lanzarote: LZ, Fuerteventura: FV, Gran Canaria: GC, Tenerife: TF, La Gomera: GO, El Hierro: HI, La Palma LP, Ceuta: CE, Melilla: ML

- But you can find several confusions indications. MA can be a road at Mallorca or a road around Málaga.
A can be a motorway anyway, can be a road at Andalucia or at Aragon

And so on...
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 13th, 2011, 06:28 AM   #2443
Aokromes
Patatero Inside
 
Aokromes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Siberia-Gasteiz
Posts: 8,018
Likes (Received): 2652

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Some pics about A-22 motorway at Binefar:

http://www.hoyenaragon.es/noticia.ph...-y-monzon/2769

They have the page "cut" for a copy-paste of the link... but there you will see four pics.
http://www.hoyenaragon.es/archivos/n...r3_2769100.jpg
__________________
Si quieres compatibilidad con estandares y seguridad, ¿pq recomiendas Firefox y no Opera?
If you want compatibility with standards and security, ¿why do you recomend firefox and not Opera?

The only truly secure system is one that is powered off, cast in a block of concrete and sealed in a lead-lined room with armed guards - and even then I have my doubts. Gene Spafford.
I am Basque, not Russian, the "Siberia" thing is a joke.
Aokromes no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 15th, 2011, 01:22 PM   #2444
CNGL
Leudimin
 
CNGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Huesca
Posts: 7,452
Likes (Received): 1932

Last Wednesday I went to the mountains, and on the trip back to Huesca I made some photos. The route was this one. A-2606, then A-136, then N-260 and finally E07 (N-330 first, later A-23). Note that A-2606 and A-136 are not motorways, but regular roads; and that A-23 only goes as far as Nueno (Google maps is a bit ahead). When I transfer the photos to the computer I will upload them.
__________________
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non nunquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem - Cicero, De finibus bonorum et malorum, from which placeholder text is derived.
CNGL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2011, 01:45 PM   #2445
Cicerón
Espere verde
 
Cicerón's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: En el obscuro jardín del manicomio
Posts: 3,876
Likes (Received): 53

Some pictures of the AP-46. It will be opened on October 28th, one day later than the remaining part of the Hiperronda in Málaga (new A-7).

Note the Arabic letters in the third picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by siles View Post
Fotos de la AP46, de hoy del SUR.













































Cicerón no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2011, 01:53 PM   #2446
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,596
Likes (Received): 19389

Unless the tolls are really low, nobody would use this motorway outside the peak holiday travel days.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #2447
Cicerón
Espere verde
 
Cicerón's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: En el obscuro jardín del manicomio
Posts: 3,876
Likes (Received): 53

According to the Spanish Wikipedia the prices for cars will be €2.25 from October to May (except during the Holy Week) and €3.43 the rest of the year. €5.90 for trucks all the year long. At nights it will be toll-free during 4 hours for cars and during 10 hours for trucks.

From what I've read in the Spanish forum, nearly all the forumers would use it.
Cicerón no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2011, 08:38 PM   #2448
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,533
Likes (Received): 21239

Why do they use non-Latin characters in this sign?

Quote:
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2011, 08:53 PM   #2449
CNGL
Leudimin
 
CNGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Huesca
Posts: 7,452
Likes (Received): 1932

Algeciras is the main ferry port for all people crossing the Gibraltar Strait back to their homes in Morocco, so Algeciras is written in Arabic, too. I've noticed that signage is old style one, they have already put new style signage in some parts of Spain (Like some signs on E07 around Huesca).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicerón View Post
According to the Spanish Wikipedia the prices for cars will be €2.25 from October to May (except during the Holy Week) and €3.43 the rest of the year. €5.90 for trucks all the year long. At nights it will be toll-free during 4 hours for cars and during 10 hours for trucks.

From what I've read in the Spanish forum, nearly all the forumers would use it.
It is a bit expensive, considering that the E70 Supersur bypass, which is also built with lots of bridges and tunnels, is a bit longer than the half of AP-46 and has tolls of a bit less than half of those of AP-46 (€1.06 I remember). But A-45 carries lots of traffic. I think a 3rd lane on A-45 would have been less expensive...
__________________
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non nunquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem - Cicero, De finibus bonorum et malorum, from which placeholder text is derived.
CNGL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2011, 09:10 PM   #2450
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

In main crosses, Algeciras and Almeria should be written in Arabic too because they are the main harbours used to go to north Africa.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 16th, 2011, 11:31 PM   #2451
J N Winkler
Road enthusiast
 
J N Winkler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oxford
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 1

Who is handling construction for the AP-46? The kilometerposts say it is on the RCE, but that does not indicate whether it is being handled directly by Fomento or through a concession contract.
J N Winkler no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 05:14 PM   #2452
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

Fomento never builds toll motorways. Any other option can be right, but never the ministry.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 17th, 2011, 09:54 PM   #2453
Cicerón
Espere verde
 
Cicerón's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: En el obscuro jardín del manicomio
Posts: 3,876
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
Who is handling construction for the AP-46? The kilometerposts say it is on the RCE, but that does not indicate whether it is being handled directly by Fomento or through a concession contract.
It's being built by Sacyr-Vallehermoso, and it will be handled by GUADALCESA, 80% owned by its subsidiary Itínere.

The name GUADALCESA comes from Autopista del Guadalmedina, Concesionaria Española Sociedad Anónima.

None of the tolled motorways in Spain that are part of the RCE are handled by Fomento.



If I'm not wrong, some of the first tolled motorways in Spain were paid and managed by concessionaire companies created ad-hoc for every motorway, for instance AVASA (Autopista Vasco-Aragonesa, Concesionaria Española Sociedad Anónima) was created to build the current AP-68.

These companies were owned by banks, construction companies and the local saving banks (cajas de ahorro. They were like banks but owned by the local governments such as municipalities and provincial councils, nowadays they have been privatized thanks to the economic crisis).

I'm not sure but I think that the State owned a part of some of these motorways too. In 1984, the State-owned parts of these companies were merged into the Empresa Nacional de Autopistas (ENA), which became in 1996 a part of the Sociedad Estatal de Participaciones Industriales (SEPI) In 2003 ENA was privatized and bought by Sacyr. A big lot of the rest tolled motorways are managed by Abertis Autopistas and Cintra.


So basically all the tolled motorways in Spain that are part of the RCE are handled by privately-owned concessionaire companies that are called "Concesionarias del Estado".

The governments of the three Basque provinces and Navarre manage all the roads in their territories except the AP-68. For instance, the AP-15 concession is handled by AUDENASA, Autopistas de Navarra Sociedad Anónima Concesionaria de la Excelentísima Diputación Foral de Navarra (Concessionaire of the Honorable Provincial Government of Navarre as opposed to "Concesionaria del Estado"). AUDENASA is fifty-fifty owned by the Government of Navarre and Itínere. In the Basque Country, when the concession of the AP-8 for Europistas Concesionaria Española S.A. ended in 2003, the concession was taken by Bidegi in Gipuzkoa and Interbiak in Biscay, which are 100% public societies owned by the respective provincial governments. The same happens with the AP-1 Vitoria-Éibar, which is owned by Bidegi and Arabat (the public society for infrastructure management in Álava/Araba).

In Catalonia you have for example AUCAT (Autopistes de Catalunya, Societat Anònima Concessionària de la Generalitat de Catalunya) which manages the C-32, in Madrid "Autopista Alcalá-O'Donnell S.A. Concesionaria de la Comunidad de Madrid" which will manage the future MP-203, in Galicia "Autoestradas de Galicia, Autopistas de Galicia, Concesionaria de la Xunta de Galicia S.A." (AG-55 and AG-57)...

Here's a list of the Spanish concessionaire companies: http://www.aseta.es/index.php?Seccion=miembros
Cicerón no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 18th, 2011, 07:30 PM   #2454
J N Winkler
Road enthusiast
 
J N Winkler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oxford
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 1

Cicerón and Alserrod, many thanks for your answers.

I should explain: my question is motivated by a desire to see, and if possible obtain a copy of, the proyecto de construcción. I knew that Fomento does not operate toll motorways on its own account, but it seems to me likely that Fomento would be sent the construction documentation as a matter of course because each autopista has effects on surrounding infrastructure, some of which Fomento maintains. There is also the possibility that Fomento or another governmental agency could build an autopista and then grant a concession for maintenance and operation only. I don't know if this has been done by Spanish central government, but I think it might have been done by the Álava provincial government in respect of the tramo of the A-1 closest to Vitoria (for which the public works unit of the provincial government put a partial proyecto online in 2003).

Before Fomento started putting proyectos online in the summer of 2008, the only way for a member of the general public to view proyectos was to go to an office on the seventh floor of the Nuevos Ministerios building in Madrid. I did this in 2003 and at that time Fomento had a large proyecto (about 55 volumes in seven boxes) for a length of the AP-7 near Tarragona.
J N Winkler no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 18th, 2011, 08:04 PM   #2455
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,778

Very short explanation.

Three main possibilities:

- Public administration (Ministry for general roads, but also regional ones) build a motorway and manage it.

- A private entreprise builds a motorway and manage it. They are free toll but administration pays for X years depending of number of cars

- A private entreprise builds a motorway and manage it. You have to pay for using it.


In the three cases, the public administration is the owner of infrastructure.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 18th, 2011, 09:54 PM   #2456
Cicerón
Espere verde
 
Cicerón's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: En el obscuro jardín del manicomio
Posts: 3,876
Likes (Received): 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by J N Winkler View Post
Cicerón and Alserrod, many thanks for your answers.

I should explain: my question is motivated by a desire to see, and if possible obtain a copy of, the proyecto de construcción. I knew that Fomento does not operate toll motorways on its own account, but it seems to me likely that Fomento would be sent the construction documentation as a matter of course because each autopista has effects on surrounding infrastructure, some of which Fomento maintains. There is also the possibility that Fomento or another governmental agency could build an autopista and then grant a concession for maintenance and operation only. I don't know if this has been done by Spanish central government, but I think it might have been done by the Álava provincial government in respect of the tramo of the A-1 closest to Vitoria (for which the public works unit of the provincial government put a partial proyecto online in 2003).

Before Fomento started putting proyectos online in the summer of 2008, the only way for a member of the general public to view proyectos was to go to an office on the seventh floor of the Nuevos Ministerios building in Madrid. I did this in 2003 and at that time Fomento had a large proyecto (about 55 volumes in seven boxes) for a length of the AP-7 near Tarragona.
In that case, unfortunately I can't help you. The only way, that I am aware of, to see a proyecto de construcción that is not available online is going to a provincial delegation of the Ministry or to a city hall of a municipality inside whose territories an infrastructure will be built (that's called "exposición pública"). And it's only available for a few days.

In the case of the A-1 near Vitoria (I think you are talking about the tramo from Ribavellosa to Nanclares de la Oca), you should take into account that a 7 km stretch of it (near La Puebla de Arganzón) goes through the County of Treviño, which belongs to Burgos province, therefore it's been built by Fomento.

This kind of works that affect one of the Basque provinces or Navarre, and any other province, are carried out by means of a convenio (agreement). Another example of this is the junction between the A-12 and the LO-20/N-232 near Logroño. The Government of Navarre pays its part, Fomento pays the part that is located in La Rioja. Obviously these provinces levy some taxes (all of them I'd say) that in the rest of Spain are collected by the Ministry of Hacienda (Treasury).

Therefore it's possible that the provincial government of Álava/Araba has given a concession for maintenance and operation only, but only in their part of the A-1.
Cicerón no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2011, 12:15 AM   #2457
J N Winkler
Road enthusiast
 
J N Winkler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oxford
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicerón View Post
In that case, unfortunately I can't help you. The only way, that I am aware of, to see a proyecto de construcción that is not available online is going to a provincial delegation of the Ministry or to a city hall of a municipality inside whose territories an infrastructure will be built (that's called "exposición pública"). And it's only available for a few days.
I have had some experience with all of these methods of getting access to proyectos. In the case of visits to the demarcaciónes, much depends on whether you find someone who is willing to help. The Constitution of 1977 guarantees the citizen's right of access to governmental information, but in the absence of a special freedom-of-information law, access is regulated by a general administrative proceedings statute which is rather unclear as to the type of access that can be provided and to whom.

The statute provides that files are open once they are archived. It also says that access can be provided to parties with an interest in the matters treated in the file, and that personal data must be protected. Logically, any restriction of access to interested parties only should apply only to files that contain personal data or that are not yet archived. However, I have found that there is a tendency to restrict access to interested parties even for files which the government acknowledges are archived. In relation to proyectos de construcción, there is also a strange ombudsman's ruling from Navarre saying that the proyecto, which at the time was archived, could be released to a person who was seeking it but that the names of the engineers (which are on every page of the planos part of the proyecto and on signature pages elsewhere in the document) had to be crossed out.

In the summer of 2010 I visited a couple of demarcaciónes in search of proyectos for motorways. At the first one I visited, I was asked to come back later the same day, and when I returned, I was allowed to transfer the contents of CDs for three proyectos to my laptop. At the second one, I was taken to the records office, where I was told that I needed to contact person X to see whether access could be granted. When I emailed X, he told me that he could not grant access on his own authority and suggested that I should take my request to Y, the jefe de demarcación. I wrote a paper letter to Y identifying the proyectos I wanted, noting that they pertained to completed work, and explaining why I wanted to see them. Y wrote back several days later, agreeing that the proyectos were indeed archived. But, he said, since I had not specified a legal interest in the information contained in the proyectos, he could not grant me access to them. I considered taking the issue to a higher level but did not do so because the Constitution guarantees access only to citizens and I felt I was already on shaky ground since I am not a citizen of Spain.

I did visit a regional government, where a very helpful official gave me CDs for a couple of proyectos for a motorway which had received attention for an unusual degree of environmental accommodation. Later I attended a public exhibition of the anteproyectos for a subway extension in the city I was visiting, and since the documentation was made available on a PC as well as in hard copy, I was able to walk out with a complete copy of it on my laptop.

Quote:
In the case of the A-1 near Vitoria (I think you are talking about the tramo from Ribavellosa to Nanclares de la Oca), you should take into account that a 7 km stretch of it (near La Puebla de Arganzón) goes through the County of Treviño, which belongs to Burgos province, therefore it's been built by Fomento.
Close--it was actually the Luko-Arlaban tramo (essentially, N-240 just north of Vitoria northeast to the Gipuzkoa provincial boundary) and the drawing chopblocks, which were bilingual Spanish/Basque, all said "Diputación Foral de Álava" in Spanish. I stopped keeping track of the project once I filed the documentation, but I think this length was handed over to Arabat for operation (including toll collection) and maintenance. (I can't get to the Arabat website to check right now--I get a "Service Unavailable" error message.)

Returning to the general question of public access to proyectos, I have noticed that several toll road operators (notably Tabasa, which handles the Vallvidrera tunnels) have online perfiles del contratante which allow registered users to download construction documents free of charge. However, none of the "big boys" (including Abertis and Cintra) offer this facility. Since these are all private companies, it is unclear to me both whether ownership of the construction documentation vests in them and whether they are required to give the public access to it.

Last edited by J N Winkler; October 19th, 2011 at 12:20 AM. Reason: To improve clarity
J N Winkler no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2011, 05:35 PM   #2458
CNGL
Leudimin
 
CNGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Huesca
Posts: 7,452
Likes (Received): 1932

That section is actually AP-1. A-1 (Or what should be A-1) goes from Vitoria East to Alsasua (Navarre) and then turns Northeast to San Sebastián.
__________________
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non nunquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem - Cicero, De finibus bonorum et malorum, from which placeholder text is derived.
CNGL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2011, 06:04 PM   #2459
J N Winkler
Road enthusiast
 
J N Winkler's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Oxford
Posts: 265
Likes (Received): 1

Google Maps does have it down as AP-1. The proyecto de construcción referred to it as A-1, but it was compiled before autovía and autopista renumbering. I was under the impression, however, that this renumbering did not extend to the Basque Country and therefore their autovías were still numbered as carreteras nacionales and that their autopistas had A- (as opposed to AP-) numbers. Is the latter not correct?
J N Winkler no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 19th, 2011, 06:08 PM   #2460
CNGL
Leudimin
 
CNGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Huesca
Posts: 7,452
Likes (Received): 1932

AFAIK they are renumbering A-8 up to Bilbao (The tolled section) to AP-8, so the latter is not correct. It seems that finally the renumeration is slowly extending to Basque Country, I've already saw signs on N-I in Álava stating that is the A-1.
__________________
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non nunquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem - Cicero, De finibus bonorum et malorum, from which placeholder text is derived.
CNGL no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autopista, carreteras, españa, highways, motorways, road, spain, spain in the world, via rapida

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium