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Old May 21st, 2012, 08:47 PM   #2761
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Okey, so the most ridiculous motorway opening in the history of Spain has a new contender. This weekend a 7 km strech of A14 (Lleida) starting in the middle of nowhere and ending in the middle of nowhere, just opened. So ridiculous was this that no official opening ceremony was held. And this is an entirely new motorway built to replace the existing road N-240. The most bothering thing about this motorway is that it is absolutely useless untill it is properly connected to A2. The motorway strech can be seen in Google maps right next to the airport.
When I went to Spain I drove a ridiculous 17 km stretch of A2 near Girona. Coming and going nowhere, since there is AP-7 just beside it.
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Old May 21st, 2012, 09:47 PM   #2762
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Another detail... The A-14 is going to be the alternative to the N-230. So it goes nowhere to nowhere between the N-230 (it will finish at Sopeira and later will be refurbished). Should it connects to the A-2, at least you would have a direct way to the north...

The N-240 (just a number but since Lerida in other direction) has the A-22 as the free motorway... and very near the opened one... has a strech still on works.

Lerida-Huesca is completely built except one strech near the one recently opened in the A-14 and the last one, still not started.


This is how things go... an important strech (to give continuing for more than 100 km motorway) still on works but another one that connects nothing (it will connects when next one will be open) is on service
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Old May 21st, 2012, 11:43 PM   #2763
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Is there anyone who can help with an overview of the Spanish motorway / A-route numbering plan as it stood until the late 1980s? In that old system the current AP-7 was numbered A-17 and numbers from 10 to 19 were attributed to the Northeast. But what other numbers (used and reserved for routes then planned) were out there?

Thanks!
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 02:28 AM   #2764
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I tell you the general system for ROADS and the summary they made for new motorways. Now with a lot of motorways they should change the numbering system. There is a thread about that.

Spain has six major radial roads from Madrid to the end of the country: France (Irun), France (La Junquera), Valencia, Cadiz, Portugal (Badajoz) and La Coruña.
Madrid is not exactly the centre of peninsular Spain but very close (exactly centre is at the west of Getafe, a little southern Madrid)
Those six roads are numbered with Roman numbers: N-I, N-II, N-III, N-IV, N-V and N-VI (never N-1, N-2, etc...)


All roads have a "kilometre 0". Usually they use west-east and south-north directions. Depending of that, they will set the kilometre 0 but they can be exceptions.

The number of the road will depend where the kilometre 0 is.

All roads with kilometre 0 located between the N-I and N-II will be named as N-1XX (this is, first digit will be 1), and so on (N-2XX for roads between N-II and N-III...)

Second digit is distance to Madrid (in direct line for kilometre 0) and third digit is to difference them (0, 2, 4... are transversal roads and 1, 3, 5... are radial ones).


For the first motorways (now you can see a lot of exceptions as well as they will need a new criteria very soon!), only A-XX and the system is the same. As an example, A-15 at Navarra runs between somewhere between N-I and N-II and ends in the N-I (when built the first time they just approach).
And motorways parallel to main roads have only one digit (A-1, A-2...)
As an exception, A-7 was for Mediterranean, A-8 for Cantabric sea and A-9 for Atlantic coast at Galicia.


Should you are interested in a specific area, just ask.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 09:19 AM   #2765
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That's largely the present system, right? To what extent does it differ from the old system? I know that the present AP-7 from La Jonquera to Barcelona bore A-17 at the time. This could reconciled as: the route runs between the A-1 and the A-2, and it's pretty far from Madrid so number 17. Ditto for other Catalan motorways that used to have an A-1X number (most of them now have a Catalan number and no longer a national number).

If the approach back in the 1970s was not too different from what it is now, does this also mean that the changes to the A-numbers in the late 1980s were limited to what you described as the exceptions at the end of your post? In other words new numbers for the coastal motorways only and no further changes to the A-routes, unless a route was brought into the hands of a regional government?
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 11:38 AM   #2766
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the system I wrote last night was about national roads. First motorways followed that system but today it is impossible to follow it, so you can see a lot of stupid things about numbering.
And... you can see a "long road" which it is real four or five normal roads one after other (few people take it corner to corner).

The system is only for roads managed by the State. Each region has its own system.

In the case of Catalonia:
C-XX where the first digit points the direction and second one is correlative.

C-1X for south-north roads
C-2X for east-west roads
C-3X for diagonal going right roads (parallel to coast, even if it is in the interior)
C-4X, C-5X and C-6X for diagonal going left roads (perpendicular to coast)

and kilometre 0 will be always in the southern, eastern corner or in the coast.

But only with the roads managed by Catalonian government. The AP-2, AP-7, A-2, A-22, A-14 (last motorway open), A-7... A-27 (when open...) and any N-XXX are managed by State
Even the N-141 (http://maps.google.es/maps?q=bossost...lu%C3%B1a&z=14) which could be the only border with no indications of State neither in France nor Spain.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 03:11 PM   #2767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
That's largely the present system, right? To what extent does it differ from the old system? I know that the present AP-7 from La Jonquera to Barcelona bore A-17 at the time. This could reconciled as: the route runs between the A-1 and the A-2, and it's pretty far from Madrid so number 17. Ditto for other Catalan motorways that used to have an A-1X number (most of them now have a Catalan number and no longer a national number).

If the approach back in the 1970s was not too different from what it is now, does this also mean that the changes to the A-numbers in the late 1980s were limited to what you described as the exceptions at the end of your post? In other words new numbers for the coastal motorways only and no further changes to the A-routes, unless a route was brought into the hands of a regional government?
In Catalunya, for instance, both C-58 Barcelona-Terrassa and C-16 Terrassa-Manresa were A-18. C-32 Barcelona-El Vendrell was A-16, C-31 and C-32 Barcelona-Palafolls were A-19 and C-33 Barcelona-Granollers was A-17. Motorway Barcelona-La Jonquera was A-17 until the opening of Barcelona bypass of current AP-7, which was firstly called A-7.

Numbering of roads depending from central government was left largely untouched until 2003, when most non-urban autovías were given an "A" number (they used to be "N", like N-401 Madrid-Toledo, now A-42, or N-II Madrid-Barcelona, now A-2). Also, toll motorways were changed from "A" to "AP" and "R" (that one only for the 4 toll roads entering Madrid).

Besides, our current system is a mess. As every regional government has its own system, and central government uses city codes to name urban motorways, we ended up with tons of prefixes for motorway names. Not to mention ordinary roads. It is impossible to tell a motorway apart from an ordinary road out of its name.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 04:42 PM   #2768
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Thanks. So the change from A-17 to A-7 came when the Barcelona bypass completed, so that the La Jonquera - Barcelona route got connected to Barcelona - Valencia. Was Barcelona - Valencia already numbered A-7 at that time or did it bear a A-2X number (as it was situated between radials A-2 and A-3)? How about the other coastal motorways? Were they numbered A-8 and A-9 from the start or did they also have numbers to somehow fit into the radial system?
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 05:23 PM   #2769
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Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Thanks. So the change from A-17 to A-7 came when the Barcelona bypass completed, so that the La Jonquera - Barcelona route got connected to Barcelona - Valencia. Was Barcelona - Valencia already numbered A-7 at that time or did it bear a A-2X number (as it was situated between radials A-2 and A-3)? How about the other coastal motorways? Were they numbered A-8 and A-9 from the start or did they also have numbers to somehow fit into the radial system?
Barcelona-Valencia was A-7 from its very construction, same as Valencia-Alicante (I mean the one that is now AP-7). A-8 and A-9 also had these numbers. Motorway numbering system was developed way later than the radial one, so there were some differences from the beginning; most important one was the addition of these three non-radial, single-digit routes.

As for autovías, some had "N-" numbers and some had "A-" ones. For example, current A-7 was called N-340 in some stretches (I think València-Xàtiva was one of them) and A-7 in others, such as the ones further south.

And just to make an example of how have things changed, current C-31 Barcelona-Castelldefels was once A-16, then N-246 when it was reclassified and finally C-31 when it was transferred to Catalan regional government.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 05:43 PM   #2770
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The strech Martorell (near Barcelona, orbital motorway)-El Vendrell (AP-2 jonction) is named as A-7 (now AP-7) instead AP-2

A-2 started just before Zaragoza (coming from Madrid), just in the point where the Zaragoza orbital motorway crosses now with the A-2 to Madrid... joined the A-7 (AP-7 now) at El Vendrell, but later, the little strech between Martorell and Barcelona was A-2 again.

Today, the A-2 km.0 is at Madrid, continues until Alfajarin and later the same kilometre numbering goes in the N-II (free road, parallel).
The AP-2 has not the km. 0 as well as it was in the eastern Zaragoza and the numbering was updated until the begining of the tolled motorway but not changed later the numbering of the tolled motorway.

AP-7 exists also at Malaga and has a curiosity... AP-7 km.0 is in the border with France and goes south and N-340/A-7 has the km. 0 in the south and goes north for more than 1000 km (it finish at Barcelona. Later it will be N-II or A-2)

A-8 started only between France and Bilbao and... later between Oviedo and Avilés had also the A-8 name when only a few motorways existed.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 07:03 PM   #2771
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Thanks for the clarifications. You might say that, back in the days of those initial few motorways, the numbering was fairly logical. At least I believe that there is a lot of merit in exempting the three coastal motorways from the radial system and give them the number 7, 8 and 9.

But if the 1990s decentralisation wasn't bad enough in creating too many weird prefixes, they also messed up big time in bringing newly created Autopistas and Autovias within the radial system. Why were the A-21 and the A-22, which are well between radials I and II, not given a number between 10 and 20? It's not that there was a lack of numbers there. Why are there so many short Autoviás in the range between radials VI and I that they had to revert to out-of-radial numbers for longer other routes?
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Last edited by -Pino-; May 22nd, 2012 at 08:20 PM.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 07:48 PM   #2772
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I live near A-21 and A-22 and... have no response about that except that we will need very soon a new system as well as they will be not enough numbers for all of them.

Road N-240 starts at Tarragona and goes until San Sebastian, crossing from Mediterranean to Atlantic.

In motorway...

Tarragona-Montblanc: A-27 (under works)
Montblanc-Lleida: AP-2 TOLLED
Lleida... Orbital motorway LL-11 (I am not sure of number) and later A-2
Lleida-Huesca: A-22
Huesca-Jaca: A-23
Jaca-Pamplona: A-21
Orbital Pamplona: A-15
Pamplona-Irurzun: AP-15 TOLLED
Irurzun-Beasaín: A-15
Beasaín-San Sebastián: A-1

try not to get confused...

There could be a new motorway Tarragona-Beasaín with an unique number (A-27, A-22 and A-21 with the same number) and A-2, A-1, A-23 and A-15 are existing ones with common trajects.

But as you can see... in this way, a new motorways more and new numeration...
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 08:26 PM   #2773
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I think that our numbering system for non-urban, central-government owned motorways is fine. Some of them could be patched together, such as the mentioned Tarragona-San Sebastián route (at least from Tarragona to Pamplona, as old national road is N-240 all the way), but otherwise it is clear and consistent. Bear in mind that N-240 starts with 2, but half of the route is inside sector I. So, it is logical for the motorway number to start with a "2". What I would've done is making A-21 and A-22 to share the same number, but I guess that's a minor issue as signage on both of them clearly leads you to Pamplona. Another road that is "out of its quadrant" may be N-340 (starts at sector IV and ends at II).

The problem with A-1X numbers is that they are all awarded. There's an A-10, an A-11, an A-12, an A-13, an A-14, an A-15, an A-16 (current C-32), an A-17 (current C-33), an A-18 (current C-58/16) and an A-19 (current C-32). And Ministerio de Fomento refuses to free these numbers. Maybe they hope these roads to get their original numbers back. I also hope that.

Finally, what I think we should do is get rid of all this stupid prefixes and use triple-digit numbers for motorways, with a numbering system shared by everyone. I'm all in for decentralizacion when it comes to funding or culture, but foreigners don't need 18 different ways to get lost when they enter our country.
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Old May 22nd, 2012, 11:24 PM   #2774
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Quote:
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The problem with A-1X numbers is that they are all awarded. There's an A-10, an A-11, an A-12, an A-13, an A-14, an A-15, an A-16 (current C-32), an A-17 (current C-33), an A-18 (current C-58/16) and an A-19 (current C-32). And Ministerio de Fomento refuses to free these numbers. Maybe they hope these roads to get their original numbers back. I also hope that.
It would be a good thing, but it's difficult to see it happening. And on that "wishful thinking" approach, you indeed quickly run out of numbers, which then leads to using numbers that are out of zone.

With so many A- and AP-routes and certain route numbers being blocked, I think that there would be merit in finding a way to free up the route numbers between 70 and 99 in a manner that is more systematic than the current approach to these numbers (a general reserve category). The easiest approach might be to create zones VII, VIII and IX for parts of the East Coast, the North Coast and Galicia respectively. This is of course beyond the traditional radial system, but in line with the well-known coastal A-routes. And as these coastal regions have a lot of motorways, that approach would create room in the existing zones I to VI, so that fewer routes have to be placed out of zone.

But well, that is not an easy change to make and therefore probably requires the major national renumbering exercise that many here are already propagating (but I don't think that it is really forthcoming).
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 01:07 AM   #2775
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I think that our numbering system for non-urban, central-government owned motorways is fine. Some of them could be patched together, such as the mentioned Tarragona-San Sebastián route (at least from Tarragona to Pamplona, as old national road is N-240 all the way), but otherwise it is clear and consistent. Bear in mind that N-240 starts with 2, but half of the route is inside sector I. So, it is logical for the motorway number to start with a "2". What I would've done is making A-21 and A-22 to share the same number, but I guess that's a minor issue as signage on both of them clearly leads you to Pamplona. Another road that is "out of its quadrant" may be N-340 (starts at sector IV and ends at II).

Absolutely correct... but they have no criteria now with new motorways. Just that.
Impossible to continue with only two digits.

Furthermore... there are some not-natural roads or ways that are considered corner to corner the same number. It doesn't happen with motorways so number of them is higher.

As a detail, I think the only road that doesn't meet the criteria is the N-230. When built it started near Tortosa but now it starts at Lérida with the same name.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 09:17 AM   #2776
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Absolutely correct... but they have no criteria now with new motorways. Just that. Impossible to continue with only two digits.
That's probably what you get when the nations has run out of in-zone numbers (also since some numbers no longer used are still reserved). Though motorway construction will likely slow down in the current economic climate, three-digit A-routes will become a necessity at some stage. That's not a bad thing in my view, but it might be a moment to make some broader re-arrangements in the numbers, so that by that time (i) all routes are in-zone and (ii) major routes have two-digit numbers and shorter connections / ring roads three-digit numbers.

Of course, creating zones VII to IX, as described in my earlier post, might smoothen the exercise. And that might also be the moment for an overhaul of the complete mess in non-national numbers. Ah well, probably more of a dream for many years to come ...
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 11:44 AM   #2777
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In my opinion, they should have to use a new zone system, as well as no "long roads".

Should you enter in Spain by the Somport tunnel, you are in the km. 670 of the N-330. This one starts at Alicante.

¿Is there anyone who makes the N-330 entirely? (even when from Alicante to Teruel is faster going by A-7 and A-23 totally free).

So... no sense to have an Alicante-Somport road.

In the case of motorways they have use shorter streches for every number... but still only two digits.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 04:51 PM   #2778
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That's probably what you get when the nations has run out of in-zone numbers (also since some numbers no longer used are still reserved). Though motorway construction will likely slow down in the current economic climate, three-digit A-routes will become a necessity at some stage. That's not a bad thing in my view, but it might be a moment to make some broader re-arrangements in the numbers, so that by that time (i) all routes are in-zone and (ii) major routes have two-digit numbers and shorter connections / ring roads three-digit numbers.

Of course, creating zones VII to IX, as described in my earlier post, might smoothen the exercise. And that might also be the moment for an overhaul of the complete mess in non-national numbers. Ah well, probably more of a dream for many years to come ...
With the current numbering system, I don't think three-digit numbers will be necessary. Even if we managed to build everything that is planned, there would still be some numbers left, because of the prefixes.

Quote:
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In my opinion, they should have to use a new zone system, as well as no "long roads".

Should you enter in Spain by the Somport tunnel, you are in the km. 670 of the N-330. This one starts at Alicante.

¿Is there anyone who makes the N-330 entirely? (even when from Alicante to Teruel is faster going by A-7 and A-23 totally free).

So... no sense to have an Alicante-Somport road.

In the case of motorways they have use shorter streches for every number... but still only two digits.
Yeah, some routes may be too long, but the system itself is very good and consistent and I don't think there is a real need to change it. It would be an unnecessary hassle.

To liven up the thread, a picture of C-37 Vic-Olot I took from a road that runs over it:



It is a grade-separated road only accessible for motor traffic that features a 4550m 3-lane tunnel. It currently ends just before Les Preses; a bypass is planned to extend the road up to Olot, but current economical situation will make it difficult to achieve.

Google Maps doesn't show it as a main road yet.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 04:58 PM   #2779
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I don't think the 3-digit system for autovías will really work. They are harder to remember and indicate a minor route, while a lot of autovías with current autonomous region numbering are rather long, often 20 - 40 kilometers, somtimes longer. Routes with such a distance in for example France and Germany almost never get 3-digit numbers.

Except for the A-70+ numbers, most A-1 - A-69 numbers are already taken or planned in the future.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:31 PM   #2780
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Except for the A-70+ numbers, most A-1 - A-69 numbers are already taken or planned in the future.
We need definitively a new system or new criteria because AP-71, A-73 & A-75 are in the wrong area, it would be better A-9X or A-8X numbers because both A-9 & A-8 are close to this motorways.

And a fact: A-78 & A-79 aren't even a motorway, just 2x2 roads...!

No mention of the A-91, just a part of A-92N motorway. And the A-92 number comes from Expo'92
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