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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:34 PM   #2781
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And the first motorway the regional government of Castilla y Leon built (Leon-Burgos) had the name of A-231. It is not managed by central government but from regional one.

Is it possible to make more difficult?
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:42 PM   #2782
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Is it possible to make more difficult?
YES

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Old May 23rd, 2012, 05:49 PM   #2783
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I think that Spain and Italy are the countries with the more messy road numbering.
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In real life, electronic toll collection was first introduced in Bergen, Norway in 1986, and well into the 21th century many countries still struggle to implement it.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 06:38 PM   #2784
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YES
That route is no longer numbered V-TP , but RM-313 (In fact is the Variante de Torre Pacheco, Torre Pacheco bypass).
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 07:24 PM   #2785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
And the first motorway the regional government of Castilla y Leon built (Leon-Burgos) had the name of A-231. It is not managed by central government but from regional one.

Is it possible to make more difficult?
Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N. In Aragón there is the same story, although its only regional motorway has its own prefix.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 07:29 PM   #2786
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That route is no longer numbered V-TP , but RM-313 (In fact is the Variante de Torre Pacheco, Torre Pacheco bypass).
Yes, i know that... but always will be V-TP.
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 07:35 PM   #2787
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Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N. In Aragón there is the same story, although its only regional motorway has its own prefix.
As far as I know... Andalucia, Murcia and Aragon still uses the old radial numbers for N-XXX C-XXX / C-XXXX class roads (Comarcales)... bur they chaged the C to A: A-XXX (RM-XXX for Murcia).
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 10:27 PM   #2788
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Quote:
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No mention of the A-91, just a part of A-92N motorway. And the A-92 number comes from Expo'92
First of all, A-92 is named after the year 1492, it was planned to open in 1992 but only the Seville-Baza stretch was opened. From Baza there are two branches, A-92N wich was finished in 1998 (I think) and A-92 proper towrads Almería, which was finished ten years after their expected date. It ends sharply in an roundabout instead of lanes incorporating into A-7.

The A-92 motorway was built over old N-342, which crossed more than one region so it had to be managed by the national government; but the national and the regional governmets reached an agreement, so they cut the N-342 into two pieces, the regional border being the cutting point. Since the road is owned by different organisms and due to the fact that A-92 was built several years before the remaining stretch to the A-7 in Murcia, when finally this tretch was built they decide to name it A-91 as it couldn't be A-92, because it was already working. The A-91 itself is rather short, just about 20 km.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N.
You missed the A-92M too (some 26 km long).
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Old May 23rd, 2012, 10:33 PM   #2789
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I don't think the 3-digit system for autovías will really work. They are harder to remember and indicate a minor route, while a lot of autovías with current autonomous region numbering are rather long, often 20 - 40 kilometers, somtimes longer. Routes with such a distance in for example France and Germany almost never get 3-digit numbers.
Problem is that Spain awarded 2-digit numbers to a lot of routes that would have been awarded 3-digit numbers in France and Germany.

In terms of motorway network, France, Germany and Spain are to a large degree comparable. In France and Germany, they have been perfectly capable of awarding the numbers 1 to 99 to the routes with the largest national importance and 100 to 999 to the motorways with minor national importance. I simply don't buy the argument that Spain needs more than 99 for its primary national routes and more than 899 for its secondary routes. Accordingly, I don't buy the argument either that regional prefixes are a must because otherwise the route numbers are getting too long and too difficult to remember.

But it does require a complete overhaul in order to get there. You need to define zones VII to IX (and redefine zones I to VI accordingly), select those 99 primary motorways out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there, select up to 899 secondary routes out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there and only then you can start awarding regional route numbers. I don't care whether any of the primary and secondary route numbers cover routes operated by regional or local government: if it's got national importance, it gets a national number. If it's got local importance only, it gets a local number.

As Spain is in economic difficulty, I am happy not to charge for this bit of free advice
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Old May 24th, 2012, 12:45 AM   #2790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Problem is that Spain awarded 2-digit numbers to a lot of routes that would have been awarded 3-digit numbers in France and Germany.

In terms of motorway network, France, Germany and Spain are to a large degree comparable. In France and Germany, they have been perfectly capable of awarding the numbers 1 to 99 to the routes with the largest national importance and 100 to 999 to the motorways with minor national importance. I simply don't buy the argument that Spain needs more than 99 for its primary national routes and more than 899 for its secondary routes. Accordingly, I don't buy the argument either that regional prefixes are a must because otherwise the route numbers are getting too long and too difficult to remember.

But it does require a complete overhaul in order to get there. You need to define zones VII to IX (and redefine zones I to VI accordingly), select those 99 primary motorways out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there, select up to 899 secondary routes out of all the actual and planned routes that are out there and only then you can start awarding regional route numbers. I don't care whether any of the primary and secondary route numbers cover routes operated by regional or local government: if it's got national importance, it gets a national number. If it's got local importance only, it gets a local number.

As Spain is in economic difficulty, I am happy not to charge for this bit of free advice
Maybe like this...

...?
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Old May 24th, 2012, 12:53 AM   #2791
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Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Yes. Roads property of regional government of Andalucía are also called A-XXX, and this includes motorways too, except, of course, A-92, A-92G and A-92N. In Aragón there is the same story, although its only regional motorway has its own prefix.


ARA-A-1, only 5,5 km motorway but it is the only bridge over a river in almost 40 km
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Old May 24th, 2012, 02:40 AM   #2792
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I think that the regional scheme makes it clearer and is avoiding using 3 digit numbers in A- motorways...

When you go through M-50 you know that it has a regional scope inside the Madrid region, in France or Germany it would have a 3 digit number, but I think that this system provides more information* keeping the names of the roads short...

*M-50 means:
M adrid
5 th
0 ring
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Old May 24th, 2012, 09:04 AM   #2793
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If you want short route numbers, you should permit every municipality to signpost its own numbers. You'll always be on single-digit roads! But no route numbering system works without a degree of continuity. A trip over primary roads of national importance should go over roads with a national number of one or two digits. That's a form of continuity given to road users all over the world, except in Spain.

What regions subsequently do in numbering their routes that are not of national importance, I don't really mind.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:09 AM   #2794
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Originally Posted by OriK View Post
I think that the regional scheme makes it clearer and is avoiding using 3 digit numbers in A- motorways...

When you go through M-50 you know that it has a regional scope inside the Madrid region, in France or Germany it would have a 3 digit number, but I think that this system provides more information* keeping the names of the roads short...

*M-50 means:
M adrid
5 th
0 ring



For all drivers, same system for all cities.
The letter o letters will mean the city. In case of province capital, it is the administrative letter. In other cases, they have "invented" specific letters for other cities.

And if ends in 0 it is a ring

In my city, Z-30 is an inner ring with a street use overall and 50 limit, and the Z-40 (very close in some points) is a motorway with 120 limit.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:29 AM   #2795
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
If you want short route numbers, you should permit every municipality to signpost its own numbers. You'll always be on single-digit roads! But no route numbering system works without a degree of continuity. A trip over primary roads of national importance should go over roads with a national number of one or two digits. That's a form of continuity given to road users all over the world, except in Spain.

What regions subsequently do in numbering their routes that are not of national importance, I don't really mind.


In Spain... national roads are managed by central government and have the same number than criteria approved in the 1940s. Rest of roads are managed by regional government, all of them with own criteria, but talking always as a secondary network.

But... about main network, there are more than 100 national roads (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:C...de_Espa%C3%B1a). That makes impossible to use only two digits.

In any case, in my opinion it will be important to have "normal roads", not one after another one... and you have in one corner a first digit absolutelly different that could make confussion (only to those drivers who take care about that, most of them do not know or do not pay care) only because the road started far away.


My city is crossed by the N-232 which has the km. 0 at Vinaroz, in the Mediterranean coast and ends at Santander in the Cantabric sea.

They are really three different roads. Vinaroz-Zaragoza is used mainly for local or regional trips, Zaragoza-Logroño is almost one of the most used in Spain, specially for trucks (it has a very intense truck traffic). Logroño-Vinaroz... only for regional traffic and will need a refurbishment.

The few streches as a motorway are pointed with A-68 only because the AP-68 is Bilbao-Zaragoza (and the tolled motorway has the km.0 in the Cantabric and the free one will have it in the Mediterranean).

Today there are only 10 km from Zaragoza to Mediterranean of A-68. Far away is N-232, one lane only... but they consider always the km.0 in the Mediterranean.

And more... a lot of traffic starts at Zaragoza or it is a car/truck that coming from other road joins there at Zaragoza.
Should you listen in the radio about an incidence in the kilometre 2XX in the N-232.... is it before or after Zaragoza? This is... in which direction?. In Madrid it is easy because one road, one number. In Barcelona, the same (only the AP-7 could make confussion), in a lot of major cities similar, even because the coast makes starting there roads or because other things. At Zaragoza is absolutely a chaos.

And... more... going by the motorway ring, the A-68 is pointed as "Alcañiz- CASTELLON". Take a look how to go from Zaragoza to Castellon, the time to take by the N-232 (have a look in Street view near "Monroyo") to Castellon and by the A-23 (direction Valencia and taking direction Castellon later). It is similar distance but free motorway Vs a road that needs refurbishments.

No local driver use it to go to Castellon... but the signals say that.

The most intelligence change would be to take the N-232 and "cut" it in three different roads. Until Zaragoza and until Logroño (and until Santander)... but that will multiply for three the number of roads if we make similar in other ones.

In summary... three digits are neccesary only because number of roads and a new numeration criteria is needed
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Old May 24th, 2012, 03:54 PM   #2796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peines View Post
As far as I know... Andalucia, Murcia and Aragon still uses the old radial numbers for N-XXX C-XXX / C-XXXX class roads (Comarcales)... bur they chaged the C to A: A-XXX (RM-XXX for Murcia).
Yup, they use the same system, but with their own prefixes. If all regions did that, our country would definitely be easier to navigate through. But some of them chose otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltzman View Post

You missed the A-92M too (some 26 km long).
Yes, I did. And I have traveled it several times. Total crap of motorway, I must say, like very much of the A-92 network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
As Spain is in economic difficulty, I am happy not to charge for this bit of free advice
Thank you so much for your sympathy

Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
I think that the regional scheme makes it clearer and is avoiding using 3 digit numbers in A- motorways...

When you go through M-50 you know that it has a regional scope inside the Madrid region, in France or Germany it would have a 3 digit number, but I think that this system provides more information* keeping the names of the roads short...

*M-50 means:
M adrid
5 th
0 ring
Calling it A-100 would make more sense if the main purpose was to tell motorways apart from ordinary roads, which is what I would like.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #2797
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Calling it A-100 would make more sense if the main purpose was to tell motorways apart from ordinary roads, which is what I would like.

There are too many motorways like this one. All major and medium cities have one or more. Ring motorways end in 0. The rest of ones can be just connections between other motorways in the metropolitan area and they have a numeration according to the city.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #2798
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But... about main network, there are more than 100 national roads (http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:C...de_Espa%C3%B1a). That makes impossible to use only two digits.
Perhaps there are to many national roads ? Redefine the national network. Perhaps numbered national routes which could have one routenumber over quit a distance nowadays have 2, 3 or even more roadnumbers. Well, then the number of roadnumbers can decrease without having the need to decommission roads to lower authorities.

For example: when introducing the NL national numbering in 1976, it turned out that the national roads 2, 26, 64 and 75 together would form the A2. That's why there's no A26, A64 or A75 in NL. You could think of anything similar in Spain. Why should all national roadnumbers lead to Madrid and not be extended beyond ?

Zoning of road numbers is just fun for roadgeeks. For motorists it just is fine to navigate long distances on easy numbers.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 06:20 PM   #2799
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A little of history...

In the 18th century they made the six radial roads. Only them. They were prepared to send royal post to every corner of Spain. Taking this roads, most of territory is not far. There are points easily to arrive or far away but it was useful then.

Later they try to use a criteria based on those six roads. The main six roads numbered with Roman numbers (N-I to N-VI. You will never see N-1 to N-6 or similar...). Rest of them three digits according wih the criteria I said.

Today the number of roads is to big and we had some of them over 1000 km (or near them) and other ones of less than 10 km!!!!.

the ministry could take another criteria considering also the two digits roads.

In that case my proposal would be to take the "real long distance roads" and use two digits for them and the rest of them using three digits.

I would propose in the Spanish thread about this when I will have time to see feedback of other forumers.
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Old May 24th, 2012, 06:44 PM   #2800
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Quote:
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Zoning of road numbers is just fun for roadgeeks. For motorists it just is fine to navigate long distances on easy numbers.
I agree with the latter. But zoning is one of the tools to create a system that is easy to comprehend for the motorist. Not because the motorist will know the zones, but the sheer association "They are speaking about the A-13, that must be somewhere in the Northeast" is already a gain. But I would be against ideas where a route should change number once it leaves a zone.

To turn to the Spanish national routes, I presume that the discussion is about N-routes. If you are talking about selecting the 99 routes of primary national importance (to be numbered 1 to 99) and the 899 routes of secondary national importance, then I think that very few of the remaining N-routes can be classified in the primary category. Many of them will fall within the secondary category, which can be a combination of second class motorways with long-haul non-motorways of secondary national importance.

Of course that does mean that you do have long-haul three-digit routes. Just like Spain has now. Is that a bad thing? I wouldn't say so; that's what they are a route of secondary importance for.
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