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Old May 24th, 2012, 10:08 PM   #2801
alserrod
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Another point of view:

There are some roads that crosses Spain almost corner to corner. This is the case of the Zaragoza-Zamora-Portugal (in fact, Barcelona-Porto), the Mediterranean (Cadiz-Barcelona... and would continue until France but further is N-II), Logroño-Vigo (it could be Barcelona-Vigo too, but it matches with N-II and N-232...) and several ones.

THESE could have two digits and going corner to corner.

The rest of roads, a new "area digit criteria" and three digits.


Some roads have more than 500 km but I believe that few people will drive more than 300 in the same one.

Take a look to N-260. Is anyone who will use corner to corner?. You are in the central Pyrenees and you see km. 5XX. They are the kilometres pending to arrive the coast after crossing a lot of mountains.
Wouldn't be more easier to "cut" this road in three or four streches, every one with its own number?
It will increase the total numbers... but easier to be located with the name of the road.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 03:22 AM   #2802
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I know I'm a bit late but here's my contribution:

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
Is there anyone who can help with an overview of the Spanish motorway / A-route numbering plan as it stood until the late 1980s? In that old system the current AP-7 was numbered A-17 and numbers from 10 to 19 were attributed to the Northeast. But what other numbers (used and reserved for routes then planned) were out there?

Thanks!
Sure, here's the list for 1975:

In case you want to learn more: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=2087


This is the 1975 catalogue (by clicking the number you can see the autopista sign, to confirm that they are not autovías, even the non-tolled ones):
Autopistas radiales básicas:
-A-1 Autopista del Norte (now AP-1 Burgos-Miranda, tolled)
-A-2 Autopista del Nordeste (now A-2 Madrid-Torrejón Air Base, not tolled + AP-2 Zaragoza-El Vendrell, tolled)
-A-3 Autopista de Levante (now A-3, a small stretch near Madrid, not tolled)
-A-4 Autopista del Sur (now AP-4, Sevilla-Cádiz, tolled)
-A-5 Autopista de Extremadura (never built)
-A-6 Autopista del Noroeste (now AP-6 Villalba-Adanero)
Autopistas costeras:
-A-7 Autopista del Mediterráneo (now AP-7, tolled)
-A-8 Autopista del Cantábrico (now A-8 Solares-Bilbao, not tolled + AP-8, Bilbao-Behovia, tolled)
-A-9 Autopista del Atlántico (now AP-9 Ferrol-Tuy, tolled)
Autopistas de conexión y ramales:
-A-18 Autopista Barcelona-Tarrasa (now C-58 and C-16)
-A-19 Autopista Barcelona-Massanet (now C-31 and C-32)
-A-37 Autopista Murcia-Cartagena (never built)
-A-49 Autopista Sevilla-Huelva
-A-66 Autopista León-Oviedo (now AP-66 León-Campomanes, tolled + A-66 Campomanes-Gijón, not tolled)
-A-67 Autopista Santander-Torrelavega
-A-68 Autopista Bilbao-Zaragoza (now AP-68, tolled)
Autopistas insulares:
-PM-1 Autopista Palma de Mallorca-Palmanova (now Ma-1)
-PM-7 Autopista Palma de Mallorca-Alcudia por Inca (now Ma-13)
-GC-1 Autopista Las Palmas-Maspalomas
-TF-1 Autopista Santa Cruz de Tenerife-Los Cristianos
-TF-5 Autopista Santa Cruz de Tenerife-La Orotava


Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Barcelona-Valencia was A-7 from its very construction, same as Valencia-Alicante (I mean the one that is now AP-7). A-8 and A-9 also had these numbers.
Are you sure of that? I have a 1984 road map of Alicante which calls it A-17.

The current numbering system for State-owned roads comes from the so-called Plan Peña (1940).

Peninsular Spain was divided into 6 areas, plus the Balearic (code 7) and Canary (code 8) islands.

This map shows the 1940 road network. Green roads are the old Comarcal (C-XXX or C-XXXX) roads: Here's a list of all of them: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:C...de_Espa%C3%B1a
Click to enlarge:



Nowadays some of these comarcal roads keep the number. For instance, the C-601 is now called M-601 in Madrid and CL-601 in Castile and Leon.


Prior to the early 1980's, there were 6 kinds of roads in Spain:


-A-X o A-XX for autopistas.
-N-X o N-XXX for national roads and the few autovías which existed back then (for instance the N-240 Vitoria-Bilbao was (and still is) popularly called "autovía" in spite of having at-grade intersections).
-C-XXX for comarcales, managed by the State (now they are important regional roads or even national roads).
-[Province code]-XXX for provinciales managed by the State or the provincial government, I'm not sure.
-[Province code]-P-XXXX for provinciales managed by the provincial government.
-[Province code]-V-XXXX for vecinales managed by the provincial government.

Some of the last 2 still keep their numbers, as the provincial governments still exist except in Asturias, Cantabria, Navarre, La Rioja, Madrid and Murcia (because they are one-province Autonomous regions, therefore there's no sense for them to exist).

For instance, here's the whole list for all the BU-, BU-P- and BU-V- roads in Burgos. BU- roads' management is now shared between the regional government of Castile and Leon and the provincial government of Burgos:
http://www.burgos.es/institucion/are...ras/carreteras

And a map of NW La Rioja I found at Flickr showing some of the old names and the new ones in parentheses:


Yo can see the old LO-713 is now called LR-202, or the LO-V-7301 is now the LR-311 (LO stands for Logroño, LR stands for La Rioja).




Bonus: A picture of the construction of the A-8 near Barakaldo (a suburb of Bilbao) in 1986, on the way to Santander:
Quote:
Originally Posted by UribeKosta1993 View Post
La A-8 en construccion a su paso por Barakaldo en 1986:


Last edited by Cicerón; May 25th, 2012 at 03:29 AM.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 06:37 AM   #2803
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Calling it A-100 would make more sense if the main purpose was to tell motorways apart from ordinary roads, which is what I would like.
At least in Madrid, regional ordinary or conventional roads, follow the schema M-XXX (but some of them were upgraded to motorways and keept the old number).

And there is also a colour code to indicate the importance of a road...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
For example: when introducing the NL national numbering in 1976, it turned out that the national roads 2, 26, 64 and 75 together would form the A2. That's why there's no A26, A64 or A75 in NL. You could think of anything similar in Spain. Why should all national roadnumbers lead to Madrid and not be extended beyond ?
The problem is that those roads doesn't have continuity in Madrid, they really finish (or start, depending on your point of view) there. Of course, there are some routes through them taking advantage of the Madrid's ringroads... for those few cases the European scheme is used...

For example the E05 or E-5 as it's known here... comes from the french border in Irún to Algeciras through AP-8/N-1/AP-1/A-1/M-40/A-4/AP-4/A-48/N-340 (Althought I think they should change it if not done yet as there is a more direct motorway conexion from A-4 to Algeciras).

You have to have in mind that the Spanish numbering system is USUALLY meant to define roads and not routes. There are few special cases in which 2 roads share a strecht which is double-signaled with both names.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aswnl View Post
Zoning of road numbers is just fun for roadgeeks. For motorists it just is fine to navigate long distances on easy numbers.
I strongly disagree as most people in Spain, consciously or not, have at least a basic knoweledge of the system and is not hard to hear experienced drivers eplaining the system to the novice ones (or the regional system if they are new in the region) in friends groups or between co-workers for example.

And people also uses the signposted road numbers (even if they are not going to use the signposted roads or haven't ever heard of them) to guess where they are geographically or where leads eath option in a bifurcation... and for me it became unconscious.

The problem comes whith the new transversal roads that hardly fit in that system and I think that we should find a better solution for them.

Last month I had to drive from Enschede to Schiphol (as I'm temorarily living in Enschede) and I got really confused when I approached Amsterdam as the numbers (A1, A2, A4, A9, ...) didn't make any sense for me... of course I don't think that the system is worse (as you probably would get confused if you don't know the system in Spain) but I think that the Spanish system is working well in Spain... maybe there are ways to improve it but I would like it to follow the same basic points...

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
I presume that the discussion is about N-routes. If you are talking about selecting the 99 routes of primary national importance (to be numbered 1 to 99) and the 899 routes of secondary national importance.
I think that this discussion is also about A-roads... the thing is that most A-roads are allways on the primary national network and that is why they don't have more than 2 digits in their numbers (maybe there exist some exceptions)... all of them have more or less the same level of importance (maybe there are some of them that are short and their only purpose is to connect other A-roads but it's not usual)... the less important motorways (in a national point of view of course) are already integrated in a regional scheme that changes the A to a code that indicates the region, province or city that they are serving, and their use by long distance travelers is usually restricted to the start and the end of the trips and sometimes to regional motorways that connect other A-roads.

In the N-roads I think that N-XX roads don't exist... And as they are hardly ever used on long distance trips, I could agree into dividing them to make the geographic thing clearer... and probably some exceptions could deserve having a 2 digits number...

Quote:
Originally Posted by -Pino- View Post
"They are speaking about the A-13, that must be somewhere in the Northeast"
It would be in the Northeast and it would probably be transversal as usually pair numbers are for radial roads and odd number for transversal ones...
But this rule has been always a bit tricky as it's not usually clear...
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Old May 25th, 2012, 09:41 AM   #2804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
the thing is that most A-roads are allways on the primary national network and that is why they don't have more than 2 digits in their numbers (maybe there exist some exceptions)... all of them have more or less the same level of importance (maybe there are some of them that are short and their only purpose is to connect other A-roads but it's not usual)... the less important motorways (in a national point of view of course) are already integrated in a regional scheme that changes the A to a code that indicates the region, province or city that they are serving, and their use by long distance travelers is usually restricted to the start and the end of the trips and sometimes to regional motorways that connect other A-roads.
My feeling is that there are still a number of A-routes that do not have primary national importance. They tend to be short motorways between a city and a through motorway or between two through motorways, yet only with a length of some 30 to 50 kilometers. Think of the A-26, A-35, AP-51, A-64 etc. I appreciate their position in the national (i.e. not regional) numbering scheme, but they could be given three-digit A-numbers so that the longer A-routes can be brought within their zones and room is created for future motorways of primary national importance (though most of those will already have been planned by now, and thus assigned a number).

When three-digit A-numbers are created, I believe that there would also be merit in integrating the A- and N-networks, so that all national numbers below 1000 are unique to one corridor only. That would permit that N-340, which is proposed to be upgraded to A-34, could already become N-34 now. But also that the combination of A-26 and N-260 could in its entirety bear the number 260, with only the prefix changing upon a switch between the Autovia and the ordinary road.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 09:59 AM   #2805
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Quote:
-A-37 Autopista Murcia-Cartagena (never built)
Wasn't this the old number for the current AP-7 Cartagena - Crevillente?
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Old May 25th, 2012, 11:17 AM   #2806
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
At least in Madrid, regional ordinary or conventional roads, follow the schema M-XXX (but some of them were upgraded to motorways and keept the old number).

And there is also a colour code to indicate the importance of a road...

Not compulsory... M-45 it was a semi-ring of Madrid (even if it is considered as a motorway between several towns in the south and east of Madrid), is of the regional government, is a fantastic one (you can use it to save time depending destination) and it has the signals in orange (regional roads)
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Old May 25th, 2012, 11:19 AM   #2807
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A little detail Ciceron:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cicerón View Post
I know I'm a bit late but here's my contribution:



Sure, here's the list for 1975:

In case you want to learn more: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=2087


This is the 1975 catalogue (by clicking the number you can see the autopista sign, to confirm that they are not autovías, even the non-tolled ones):
Autopistas radiales básicas:
-A-1 Autopista del Norte (now AP-1 Burgos-Miranda, tolled)
-A-2 Autopista del Nordeste (now A-2 Madrid-Torrejón Air Base, not tolled + AP-2 Zaragoza-El Vendrell, tolled)

+ Entrance to Barcelona (Martorell-Barcelona). It was signaled as AP2. Today, A-2 the free part and AP-2 the small tolled part
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Old May 25th, 2012, 11:46 AM   #2808
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Quote:
-A-37 Autopista Murcia-Cartagena (never built)
Wasn't this the old number for the current AP-7 Cartagena - Crevillente?
Yes.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 04:09 PM   #2809
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Ooops, I was totally convinced that motorway Valencia-Alicante started life as A-7.

About the main issue, the Spanish road numbering system (I mean, non-motorway numbers) is almost a century old. Thus, road numbers are known by most people and I think it would be too much of a hassle to change it, even for a better one.
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Old May 25th, 2012, 04:55 PM   #2810
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Yeah... but new roads have been built since then (or just some secondary roads numbered as a national road and later refurbished) and they still follow the same criteria. A criteria that a few people knows.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 01:07 AM   #2811
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Not compulsory... M-45 it was a semi-ring of Madrid (even if it is considered as a motorway between several towns in the south and east of Madrid), is of the regional government, is a fantastic one (you can use it to save time depending destination) and it has the signals in orange (regional roads)
That's the colour code, orange means autonomic primary networks, the blue motorways in Madrid (even M-40 and M-50) have blue colour because they are for both regional and national traffic..
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Old May 26th, 2012, 01:37 AM   #2812
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In my region (Aragón):

- Motorways in blue A-XX or AP-XX
- National roads in red (N-II or N-XXX, which could be N-1XX, N-2XX, N-3XX and N-4XX)
- Regional roads in orange, primary regional network... except the only regional motorway (ARA-A-1) in blue. Rest of them in orange: A-XXX
- Secondary regional network in green: A-1XXX (second digit points the area, even when it is now hardly defined)
- Third level network in yellow: A-2XXX (second digit also about area)
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Old May 26th, 2012, 05:00 PM   #2813
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
That's the colour code, orange means autonomic primary networks, the blue motorways in Madrid (even M-40 and M-50) have blue colour because they are for both regional and national traffic..
That's not because of this but because they are funded by Madrid regional government.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 07:58 PM   #2814
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
That's not because of this but because they are funded by Madrid regional government.
I meant that, M-40 and M-50 belong to the central government, M-30 belogns to the city hall and M-45 belongs to the regional government.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 08:22 PM   #2815
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The average motorist doesn't care to which government a road belongs, so signage should be the same for every road type, regardless of who owns it.
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Old May 26th, 2012, 08:31 PM   #2816
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Yes, I think that motorways of the Madrid government should be blue... but it's not that bad because only the background of the road code is in that colour... the colour code in Spain is still: blue for motorways and white for conventional roads and it's respected... I'll try to find a picture showing how that is signaged.
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Old May 27th, 2012, 12:51 AM   #2817
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The average motorist doesn't care to which government a road belongs, so signage should be the same for every road type, regardless of who owns it.


In my region happens like that.
In blue motorways, even if regional, national, tolled, not tolled, etc... Looking to the name of it you can see which one is... but looking to the colour, you know it is, at least, a dual carriageway (it could be only that, or it could be a three lane per way motorway...)

The rest... national in red, regional of first, second and third level in orange, green and yellow... except for motorways (blue always).
N-XXX, A-XXX, A-1XXX and A-2XXX respectively.
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Old May 28th, 2012, 08:52 PM   #2818
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The average motorist doesn't care to which government a road belongs, so signage should be the same for every road type, regardless of who owns it.
In fact, it is already the same, indeed. When you are on a road and see a signal with blue background you know it's a motorway, despite the name road not being shown with a blue background itself. Before the current scheme was implemented in 2003, it was far frequent to face this kind of signage (for example, on N roads, a red background was shown).
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Old May 28th, 2012, 10:13 PM   #2819
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That is thrue. The "name" of the road could be in red pannel, orange, green or any colour. There is not a stadarization about the colours for the name of roads.

But what it is sure is that highway or motorway: white letters over a blue pannel. Other roads, black letters over white pannel.

What do they talk about "other roads" (primary, secondary,, etc... network) is the point I said it is not standarized.
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Old May 29th, 2012, 03:34 PM   #2820
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boltzman View Post
In fact, it is already the same, indeed. When you are on a road and see a signal with blue background you know it's a motorway, despite the name road not being shown with a blue background itself. Before the current scheme was implemented in 2003, it was far frequent to face this kind of signage (for example, on N roads, a red background was shown).
There are still motorways with red background. Some even have red kilometer posts.

Notice the mess on this particular one: blue signs, red kilometer posts and orange in directions to it.

Our regulations in coloring are clear, but every road authority interprets them their very own way.

Last edited by verreme; May 29th, 2012 at 03:42 PM.
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