daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 29th, 2012, 07:05 PM   #2981
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,828

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Those signs are very...colorful.

What's "shadow-tolled" mean?


As Chris said, it is a payment by administration. Instead of building the motorway and taking care of maintenance, it will be one entreprise who will built it and keep maintenance for 30 years.
Administration will pay a fix amount and a variable one depending on traffic.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 29th, 2012, 07:10 PM   #2982
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,828

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
On the N-330 (Former E07) in Zaragoza, at the interchange with E90/Z-40: http://goo.gl/maps/IgR0d. And on the E90/Z-40 in the same interchange there was another one, but I believe they have removed it with the widening.


Just in the other side of the city you have more examples:

https://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...,,0,-1.71&z=17

https://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...,,0,-3.38&z=17

https://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...9,,0,0.46&z=15

the 3 examples are on the same point (the 4th way has no ABC exit but AB, BC)
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2012, 09:28 PM   #2983
ajch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: FuentePiedra - Málaga
Posts: 261
Likes (Received): 75

And another one in the entrance of Malaga

http://goo.gl/maps/Lx8gl

and this is funny, just when i was trying to get the image, i got this other image of the same exit (taken from the service road)

http://goo.gl/maps/wqPV1

Can you get the difference?
ajch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2012, 10:44 PM   #2984
Vignole
e^(iπ)+1=0
 
Vignole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,014
Likes (Received): 479

More pics. Now it's time for R-5, from M-45 to junction with AP-41.

image hosted on flickr

R-5 01 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 02 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 03 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 04 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 05 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 06 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 07 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 08 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 09 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 10 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 11 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 12 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 13 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

R-5 14 by Vignole, on Flickr
Vignole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 01:53 AM   #2985
Peines
Peter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Madrid
Posts: 873
Likes (Received): 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
They are way more photogenic than the Dutch ones
Spanish rural motorways often resemble rural freeways of southwestern USA. Desert environment, wide median, sometimes no barriers. I once hitchhiked from Madrid to Alicante and most of the way I felt like in Arizona.
Yes, I felt the same as you every time I do Alicante - Madrid - Alicante.

In 3 weeks I'll have a trip to Madrid, so, I'll post some photos of the A-70, A-31, A-3 E-901, M-30… and maybe M-31, M-11 and M-40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
This toll road looks so empty, it must be bankrupt. Was it Sunday or something? Also, amount of toll plazas on such short stretch is just ridiculous
Well… all R-X Motorways are in bankrupt.

Vignole: Why you chose tolled motorway in Madrid during summer…? Even in normal season has no reason for chose toll motorway having a "non tolled" motorway as option.

Last edited by Peines; August 30th, 2012 at 11:25 AM.
Peines no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 10:56 AM   #2986
Vignole
e^(iπ)+1=0
 
Vignole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,014
Likes (Received): 479

Here you have pics of AP-41, from R-5 to Toledo. Only one car overtook me at the junction with R-5.

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 01 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 02 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 03 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 04 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 05 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 06 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 07 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 08 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 09 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 10 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 11 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 12 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 13 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 14 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 15 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 16 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 17 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 18 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 19 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 20 by Vignole, on Flickr
Vignole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 10:57 AM   #2987
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,828

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajch View Post
And another one in the entrance of Malaga

http://goo.gl/maps/Lx8gl

and this is funny, just when i was trying to get the image, i got this other image of the same exit (taken from the service road)

http://goo.gl/maps/wqPV1

Can you get the difference?


Torremolinos is written bigger and the airport signal is upside down
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 12:10 PM   #2988
verreme
Registered User
 
verreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 1,392
Likes (Received): 645

Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
They are way more photogenic than the Dutch ones
Spanish rural motorways often resemble rural freeways of southwestern USA. Desert environment, wide median, sometimes no barriers. I once hitchhiked from Madrid to Alicante and most of the way I felt like in Arizona.

This toll road looks so empty, it must be bankrupt. Was it Sunday or something? Also, amount of toll plazas on such short stretch is just ridiculous
Well, Spain has a huge diversity of landscapes. SE corner may look a lot like a desert, but other parts of the country may be completely different. In my region, Catalunya, landscapes may vary from exhuberant forests to desert-like land in just 150 km. The diversity of climates is just as big as that; Spain's wettest point is in Cádiz province, 200 km away from the driest one.

These toll roads (R-2, R-3, R-4, R-5, M-12, AP-41, AP-36 and the southernmost sector of AP-7) are all bankrupt. They serve no purpose, they are there just because someone could fill his or her pockets being awarded the construction contract. Saddest thing of it all is that the government may increase existing tolls or toll other roads as a "bailout" for these ones.
verreme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #2989
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,828

About landscapes...

These two images are only 40 km away IN THE SAME MOTORWAY

http://maps.google.es/?ll=41.266969,...357.44,,0,9.23


http://maps.google.es/?ll=41.547775,...,211.61,,0,5.3


What it is amazing is that there are a lot of motorways (not only this one) where every 50 km you have a totally different landscape.


It is a southern Europe country so the dessert will be very common in landscape. It is enough to see a google maps air photo to take notice, but it is a country with a lot of mountains too
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 12:59 PM   #2990
geogregor
Registered User
 
geogregor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: London
Posts: 15,548
Likes (Received): 19296

Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Well, Spain has a huge diversity of landscapes. SE corner may look a lot like a desert, but other parts of the country may be completely different. In my region, Catalunya, landscapes may vary from exhuberant forests to desert-like land in just 150 km. The diversity of climates is just as big as that; Spain's wettest point is in Cádiz province, 200 km away from the driest one.
I know, that's why I like travelling to Spain. I also like the fact that is is relatively sparsely populated country, perfect place for road trips.

Quote:
These toll roads (R-2, R-3, R-4, R-5, M-12, AP-41, AP-36 and the southernmost sector of AP-7) are all bankrupt. They serve no purpose, they are there just because someone could fill his or her pockets being awarded the construction contract. Saddest thing of it all is that the government may increase existing tolls or toll other roads as a "bailout" for these ones.
That is sad but obvious for anyone who look at road map of Madrid region. Some of these roads wouldn't make any sense even if they were for free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vignole View Post
This must be the most boring job is Spain. Do tolls even cover his wages?

Wow, it looks almost like this road was closed for traffic.
geogregor no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #2991
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19421

Most toll roads were anticipated to serve much more developments. Most of them were built just a few years before the real estate bust came. Note that Spain had a very high population growth before 2008.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 01:29 PM   #2992
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,828

And there are some motorways that receive an intense traffic in some dates. For instance, AP-2 has no traffic several days and a long queues on weekends and specially on summer.

Tolls are wide and prepared for those days where they have a lot of staff working there. Rest of days, almost empty.

I remember one sunday evening with a long, long queue before the main toll that apart of staff on toll cabins, there were some staff walking along the cars queues. They asked for your toll ticket and they offered you to pay there if you wanted to make in cash. Should you pay them, they gave a ticket to pass free in the toll cabin and make it faster.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 01:43 PM   #2993
verreme
Registered User
 
verreme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Barcelona
Posts: 1,392
Likes (Received): 645

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Most toll roads were anticipated to serve much more developments. Most of them were built just a few years before the real estate bust came. Note that Spain had a very high population growth before 2008.
There is no population growth that could justify Madrid radiales. Widening the existing motorways and improving connecting roads would have made much more sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
And there are some motorways that receive an intense traffic in some dates. For instance, AP-2 has no traffic several days and a long queues on weekends and specially on summer.

Tolls are wide and prepared for those days where they have a lot of staff working there. Rest of days, almost empty.

I remember one sunday evening with a long, long queue before the main toll that apart of staff on toll cabins, there were some staff walking along the cars queues. They asked for your toll ticket and they offered you to pay there if you wanted to make in cash. Should you pay them, they gave a ticket to pass free in the toll cabin and make it faster.
AP-2 is not bankrupt. It is a very important motorway that has a lot of traffic, and revenue generated by tolls is enough to pay the road and mantain it.

Same with AP-1, AP-6 or AP-7. They may be empty in some periods, but they quickly fill up in holidays because they serve a very important function. R-2 has been completely empty even during the pain-in-the-ass roadworks in A-2. When they are finished, it is going to be even emptier.

A lot of pointless infraestructure was planned and built in Spain during the economic boom years, and now we're paying for it. It's not just toll motorways, it's airports in the middle of nowhere, HSR with no passengers (and that was not cheap at all), and much more.
verreme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 03:18 PM   #2994
Vignole
e^(iπ)+1=0
 
Vignole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,014
Likes (Received): 479

Last pics of AP-41. Well, we should say TO-22 (toll-free section):

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 21 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 22 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 23 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 24 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 25 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 26 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 27 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 28 by Vignole, on Flickr

image hosted on flickr

AP-41 29 by Vignole, on Flickr
Vignole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 03:30 PM   #2995
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,624
Likes (Received): 19421

I think the radiales are chiefly beneficial for those who want to pass by Madrid, but are not interrupted by local traffic congestion. However, with the unemployment being as high as it is, traffic congestion is probably down considerably on the old radiales (A-1 > A-6), so the tolls are not really worth it.

AP-36 is only useful during summer vacation peaks, otherwise traffic volumes on A-3 are certainly not very high outside greater Madrid.

AP-41 is only viable if large scale developments occur in this area.

The Spanish toll road problems are a primary example of why toll roads don't work if there are good toll-free alternatives. If the entire network was either tolled, or entirely untolled, the use of these routes would be substantially higher.

I don't think the radiales and roads like AP-41 require very high traffic volumes to become financially sustainable, the construction cost of these routes were very low, and therefor the outstanding debts was likely much lower than say AP-1 or AP-8 in País Vasco which were much more expensive to construct.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 03:34 PM   #2996
Vignole
e^(iπ)+1=0
 
Vignole's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,014
Likes (Received): 479

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peines View Post
Vignole: Why you chose tolled motorway in Madrid during summer…? Even in normal season has no reason for chose toll motorway having a "non tolled" motorway as option.
Same reason because I read this forum and I post it. Perhaps I'm a freak.

I also have pics of free autovias, not only tolled motorways.
Vignole no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 03:47 PM   #2997
CNGL
Leudimin
 
CNGL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Huesca
Posts: 7,467
Likes (Received): 1937

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
AP-41 is only viable if large scale developments occur in this area.
Don't forget that AP-41 was originally intended to be a long, tolled motorway, running from R-5 near Arroyomolinos to E05/A-4 somewhere East of Cordova (Possibly Montoro). A-41 from Ciudad Real and Puertollano was to be a toll-free section of the motorway. However, the plans have been scrapped due to enviromental reasons (Natura 2000 thing, like many other projects around Europe), and only the Arroyomolinos-Mocejón section and the toll-free A-41 got built.

I like the name of Ciudad Real, it can be translated to "Royal City".
__________________
Neque porro quisquam est qui dolorem ipsum, quia dolor sit amet, consectetur, adipisci velit, sed quia non nunquam eius modi tempora incidunt ut labore et dolore magnam aliquam quaerat voluptatem - Cicero, De finibus bonorum et malorum, from which placeholder text is derived.
CNGL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 03:50 PM   #2998
OriK
Usuario Registrado
 
OriK's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 721
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
AP-41 is only viable if large scale developments occur in this area.
AP-41 is the one that I better know and it only makes sense for going to Madrid during peak hours (because the rest of the time it takes longer as it has more kms than the A-42) going to some destinations that don't have a free motorway alternative (or it's much worse) or some routes like Toledo-Móstoles....

But it's just too expensive... people usually don't take it in account when planning their trips.
OriK no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 04:22 PM   #2999
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,828

AP-2 obviously is not under bankrupt... but the difference on traffic while peak hours and normal hours is high.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 30th, 2012, 04:42 PM   #3000
Peines
Peter
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Madrid
Posts: 873
Likes (Received): 99

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Spanish toll road problems are a primary example of why toll roads don't work if there are good toll-free alternatives. If the entire network was either tolled, or entirely untolled, the use of these routes would be substantially higher.
SSSsshshhsss… Don't tell to our politicians that kind of ideas which can learn quickly… plz ssssshhh…

Peines no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autopista, carreteras, españa, highways, motorways, road, spain, spain in the world, via rapida

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:56 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium