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Old September 3rd, 2012, 04:13 PM   #3041
ChrisZwolle
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Public transport is generally slow, even in the cities. What counts are door-to-door travel times, not station-to-station where many politicians focus on. Madrid has a gigantic subway network as you probably know.

I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 04:55 PM   #3042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Public transport is generally slow, even in the cities. What counts are door-to-door travel times, not station-to-station where many politicians focus on. Madrid has a gigantic subway network as you probably know.

I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.
Exactly.

There's a lot of Indrustial & Service zones (Offices, Shopping Centers, etc, etc…) in Madrid Area wich are not connected to the Metro/Tram/Cercanias system but you can access quickly by you own car.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 05:04 PM   #3043
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I was working in one of them for a little more than one month. I hate so much traffic congestion that I parked my car in the nearest commuter train station. Time going to that station was the same in the morning as well as there was too mucha congestion and frequencies were about 15 minutes per train.

While the week when I got off the office I parked the car close to the station and returned on train. On fridays I used my car to go home because I knew I will use it on weekend

But... how many people do it?


PS. One forumer wrote something like this near Zaragoza and it is a very important merit because the person who made it (he had a motorcycle) had only six trains per day, but timetables were nice for him and preferred to go by train and just two km. in moto at the end.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 07:32 PM   #3044
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Our urban sprawl patterns make it very difficult to have a really efficient public transport system. Inside cities it is OK, but moving to and from then, and especially between smaller cities in big metro areas, is slow and unefficient.
Yes that's why I think there should be places to concentrate the traffic in order to make efficient the transport system.

And in the cities it's much more difficult to organize it... because the population is sprawl in all directions, but towns are generally organized in corridors... the problem is the density of the population... and the transversal trips...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Public transport is generally slow, even in the cities. What counts are door-to-door travel times, not station-to-station where many politicians focus on. Madrid has a gigantic subway network as you probably know.

I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.
Yes... the problem is that driving to some areas involve at least 30 minutes of parking or unaffordable expenses... and for the station-to-station time you only have to add the walking (or even cycling) time from station to door...

Furthermore the train is often faster than the car from door-to-door even with no traffic or parking issues. You cannot pretend to have a train station in every town, but you can pretend to have a station in a near town or small city with a big parking allowing you to transfer.... in fact I'm supposed to have that option but the schedule of the train isn't that good... but from my place to my university... door-to-door without traffic and without parking it takes 25-30 mins by train and 40 mins by car... (and up to 90 mins with traffic and parking problems) and the train is way cheaper.

Generally in Madrid people tend to prefer public transportation, but there are 3 main reasons to not use it...

1) The route is not optimal (the degree of tolerance changes between neighborhood and the total trip time but it generaly means that if it takes 30% longer, the route is not optimal)
2) Door-to-station or station-to-door problems (walking time is too long or it's just far away without an alternative to get there).
3) Incompatible or not competitive schedules.

Furthermore sometimes people don't know their options to get somewhere...

The car is a great transportation method sometimes, but I'd rather be independent than car or public transport dependent.
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Old September 3rd, 2012, 11:57 PM   #3045
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Do you really think the train is faster door-to-door? I think this is only in short trips inside a big city in rush hours. Where I live it is always slower, no matter the time of the day. Only apocalypthic-like traffic jams would make it actually faster.

Take for example my former workplace, Terminal T1 of Barcelona-El Prat Airport. If I lived in Barcelona (I mean, right in the train station), a train ride there would take me 20 minutes, plus a 10-minute bus trip. With a car you only need 15 minutes to go from the city center to the airport. And I don't actually live in Barcelona city, so it took me 1h30min to get there using public transport, even driving my car to the train station. If I drove instead, I could be in the airport in less than 30 minutes.

And I don't live in the North Pole. It's a reality for millions of people living in Barcelona metro area, and it applies for other Spanish big cities with huge metro areas.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:02 AM   #3046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
The car is a great transportation method sometimes, but I'd rather be independent than car or public transport dependent.
Exactly! Great public transportation system doesn't preclude one from also having a car for occasions when using it makes more sense.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:03 AM   #3047
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Quote:
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And I don't live in the North Pole. It's a reality for millions of people living in Barcelona metro area, and it applies for other Spanish big cities with huge metro areas.
That is why about 85% of passenger travel in the European Union is by car.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:13 AM   #3048
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I think we have to understand that even with the best imaginable public transportation system 60-70% of all trips will still be with a car (I believe our number here in Switzerland is about 70%). It will be more than that in rural areas and less in big cities. Nevertheless good public transport is essential, particularly in big cities. It probably would not be pretty if every road in Madrid were to add 30% more traffic.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:30 AM   #3049
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Offtopic: I'm the only one around here who never use public transport…? In fact, I think I have a really a American Lifestyle: to do anything I need the car.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:35 AM   #3050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That is why about 85% of passenger travel in the European Union is by car.
Fortunately, Madrid is a city with a large percentage of public transport users.

Quote:
Public transport was the main means of transportation in the inner-city travel in 2010, accounting for 42 percent of all trips. Of this amount, 20.7 percent was held in Metro or light rail, 17.5 percent by bus, 3.3 percent by rail and 0.5 percent in taxi. The walking and cycling accumulated 32 percent of travel, a quarter of all car and motorbike one percent. The displacements of less than 30 minutes drive increased 10.5 percent in the case of journeys on foot and by 7.5 percent in the car. The public transportation during tours of this nature fell four points.

http://www.madridiario.es/2011/Dicie...-descarga.html
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Old September 4th, 2012, 01:09 AM   #3051
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What do they mean by "the inner-city" travel?
Even in crazily congested London cars are responsible for almost half the journeys.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 09:25 AM   #3052
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Unfortunatelly, Madrid could have more public transport users that now.

I knew one person this summer who lives in the north and goes to the south for working. She doesn't have parking problem as well as most of journeys are south-north in those hours... but time on car is similar than on public transport.

She lives close to a new commuter station and when she said the problem she had with congestion one day I asked why she didn't use the commuter. She said she need to know timetables and later had to change on train at Atocha.
Yeah... she should have to take two trains and it is not the most direct journey but... time on train is similar that time on car. She doesn't need the metro, just the commuter, must faster!. She lives close to a station and works close to another one. In her home there is a 10 minutes frequency on peak hours (even you do not know the timetables it will be not a long time waiting). Second train to have has a 3 minutes frequency on peak hours (the train with a longest frequency in Spain).

But she still did not consider the public transport...


There will be a lot of people who do not have train home to job, but another number of people who does and do not use.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 10:33 AM   #3053
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"inner city travel" is only a fraction of metropolitan area travel. In any typical metropolitan area, 80 - 90% of employment is outside the city core.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #3054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I'd rather be car-dependent than public transport-dependent.
Sure, but smart people may use both the car and the public transportation system. Especially for daily commuting the public transport may be a good choice fot lots of people - not every one, however. Madrid has many subway lines and the Cercanias system which, too, is very efficient, especially for people that travel for a longer distance between home and working place, and several hundreds of thousands of people use them - and many of them do have a car and use it for shopping, etc.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:22 PM   #3055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
That is why about 85% of passenger travel in the European Union is by car.
Right. And it could be even more if people in poor nations like Hungary, Romaina and Bulgaria had the money for a car.
However, the situation is quite different in big cities (and as you may know Madrid is one of the biggest ones in the continent). Here below you can see a link to some statistics about transport methods in 75 European citites. Click on the picture for a large version, and then on the UK flag for a legend in English. You'll see that in Madrid public transport ridership is clearly bigger than car usage.

Source: attus.hu; Click for large picture
Of course there are lots of people whose daily travel doesn't fit to the public transit network. I think no one (except for some railway enthusiasts) want to force them to take the train instead of driving a car every day. A 50-50 split may be quite optimal for such big cities. Basically it means that people that have a school or working place in the center use the public transport and people that don't travel to the center drive a car. The densest a city center is, the more efficient a public transport system may be.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:37 PM   #3056
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I think we have to understand that even with the best imaginable public transportation system 60-70% of all trips will still be with a car (I believe our number here in Switzerland is about 70%).
Yeah, and Switzerland has the most efficient public transport system and the highest public transport ridership in Europe, so saying that 70-95% of the motorized (=non walking or cycling) transport is done by car is closer to reality. In such a country like Spain that has a pretty low population density (93/sqkm and even less outside the Madrid and Barcelona metropolitan areas), public transport will never have an important role, except for commuting in the largest cities and the most important intercity lines.
Subway and Cercanias in and around Madrid, Barcelona, AVE lines of Madrid - Sevilla and Madrid - Barcelona, possibly some local public transport in Sevilla, Alicante, Zaragoza, and that's all. For any other kind of travel, public transportation will always be much less efficient than car so paying much public money for public transport is a wasting of money (of course maintaining some public transport for children, elderly people, etc. is always important in a civilized society).
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Old September 4th, 2012, 12:41 PM   #3057
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Offtopic: I'm the only one around here who never use public transport…? In fact, I think I have a really a American Lifestyle: to do anything I need the car.
I don't think this is a good option. Even though much of my driving is for pleasure purposes, I think it's sensible to reduce our energy dependence by using less costly (energetically-wise) transportation. So, I use public transport when I have to go somewhere and I'm not in a hurry.

When I worked at the airport, I used public transport 100% of the days when my schedule made it possible (if I had a night shift I just had to take my car), even if it took me double time to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Unfortunatelly, Madrid could have more public transport users that now.

(...)

But she still did not consider the public transport...


There will be a lot of people who do not have train home to job, but another number of people who does and do not use.
True. I also know some. But I don't think those are many. Both our road infrastructure and public transportation are good enough, and if someone's commute has a good public transport offer he or she will definitely not drive to work, because public transport is always cheaper.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 01:03 PM   #3058
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
I don't think this is a good option. Even though much of my driving is for pleasure purposes, I think it's sensible to reduce our energy dependence by using less costly (energetically-wise) transportation. So, I use public transport when I have to go somewhere and I'm not in a hurry.

When I worked at the airport, I used public transport 100% of the days when my schedule made it possible (if I had a night shift I just had to take my car), even if it took me double time to get there.
You said you have a option: for me isn't a option use the car.
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Old September 4th, 2012, 01:40 PM   #3059
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Originally Posted by Attus View Post
Yeah, and Switzerland has the most efficient public transport system and the highest public transport ridership in Europe, so saying that 70-95% of the motorized (=non walking or cycling) transport is done by car is closer to reality.
In Switzerland in 2011 car accounted for 75% of motorized traffic (both passengers and passengers*km), while trucks accounted for 60% of ton*km (the remaining it's around 39% rail and 1% water and pipelines, excluding transit truck share is 75%).
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Old September 4th, 2012, 03:22 PM   #3060
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You said you have a option: for me isn't a option use the car.
I guess you fall in the % of Spanish citizens that live far from everything then

I'm just at the border between having good transportation options and being completely isolated. Look at the people living here, for example. There are lots of residential developments like this, far from any reasonable bus or train route.

Better urban planning would have spared us this, but looks like every mountain had to be covered with houses and streets, no matter how steep it was.
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