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Old December 29th, 2012, 12:12 AM   #3381
ChrisZwolle
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Well, there are of course always statistical outliers like Calle 30 or the Bilbao bypass. Just pointing out that the far majority of the Spanish motorways were constructed at very low prices by western European standards. For instance the average Meseta autovía costs € 3 - 6 million per kilometer and about double that in mountainous areas. The average German Autobahn costs € 26 million to construct.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 12:38 AM   #3382
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Does anybody know of the status of works on N330 between Sabìñânigo and Nueno?
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Old December 29th, 2012, 02:47 AM   #3383
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As far as I know... the second lane was opened last summer while the first one was closed for refurbishment in the Monrepos mountain pass, side south.

In that area, lane to Huesca will be new (that one where now the traffic goes) and lane to Jaca will be the old one refurbished (it had some curves with a 60 km/h limit)
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Old December 29th, 2012, 08:24 AM   #3384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
As far as I know... the second lane was opened last summer while the first one was closed for refurbishment in the Monrepos mountain pass, side south.

In that area, lane to Huesca will be new (that one where now the traffic goes) and lane to Jaca will be the old one refurbished (it had some curves with a 60 km/h limit)
Nice. The geological formations out there are very interesting, unusual. Looks almost like an alien land. Also, it is extremely windy, at least the 3 times I drove there.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 11:53 AM   #3385
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As alserrod said, the new tunnel (The first one of two that will be between Arguis and Monrepós summit) is open, while the old one is now closed. I drove there in late October, but since then I didn't passed again. While there are two sections due to open in 2013, the section between them (Isuela gorge-Arguis) is nowhere near finished (I believe works haven't restarted yet), and then there are three sections, from Lanave to Sabiñánigo South, as well as the Northern part of Sabiñánigo bypass, where works haven't started yet.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 12:57 PM   #3386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Does anybody know of the status of works on N330 between Sabìñânigo and Nueno?
A-23 / N-330: Nueno - Sabiñánigo.
- Sabi / Lanave:
Be very very very careful if you drive from/to Jaca. The highway ends with a very closed curve. It can be driven at the speed indicated by the signals, but you'd rather not go faster there.
In Sabi there's still no alternative to the national road. However, two parallel bridges have been built near the South crossroad (I can't say whether they're completely finished, at least this is what it seems).
In Bailín, near Sabi, the road shoulders are affected by works, but they don't affect circulation.
Near Jabarrella's zone I don't remember whether works are advanced or not, in any case works there are completely separated from N-330.
- Monrepós' North face:
Near Lanave the first layer of pavement was spread weeks ago. As you ascend you can see the huge green bridge finished, but not in service yet. All the North face of the pass is still done via N-330.
There's a new bridge above the horsheshoe curve almost on top with banister. At this moments it leads to nowhere.
In general, pavement is quite deteriorated by works. It was worse near the crossroads of Caldearenas' road, but fortunately it has been mended.
- Tunnels Zone:
The short tunnel is limited at 60 km/h if you go to Huesca and at 80 if you go to Sabi (I don't know why). The access to the tunnel remains the same as since 2008 or even before, and there's only one lane for each direction (originally, there were two towards Huesca.
Now the long tunnel is closed and the new long tunnel, a bit higher than the old one, is in service and limited at 80. If you go from Sabi to Huesca you can drive the first half of the tunnel without petrol consumption, the road is slightly inclined.
You can feel lucky because in 2008-2010, more or less, all this section was limited at 40 (the original limits were 90 for the tunnels and 100 for the road between them).
- Arguis:
This stretch, originally two lanes towards Sabi and one towards Huesca, is now only one lane each direction. Near the tunnel's control building (very ugly, in my opinion) the third lane reappears. There's no lack of lanes till the end of the road.
- Isuela's Canyon:
Apart from some speed limitations, there are no affections to traffic but be careful because there are people working there. The road is N-330 as always until the point near Nueno when A-23 starts.
A very high bridge and a tunnel have been built at the other wall of the canyon, but they're not open to traffic yet. Pavement there is already painted, there are signals... they only have to prepare the connection with N-330. Maybe with this finished, they'll inaugurate a new short stretch of the highway. But very short indeed.

C-136: Nueno - Lanave.
I wouldn't like to forget the old and legendary Monrepós' pass. Works have divided it in three parts:
- The North part goes from a curve in N-330's North face to the crossroads with Caldearenas' road (but not the one I mentioned earlier... a lower one). Passing is forbidden there.
- The central part is open. It goes from N-330 to Arguis and then to Manzanera's Tunnel. There's a lot of space there to turn back or you can go to Nocito, Basa... but in any case C-136 ends there because the tunnel is closed.
- The South part runs along the other wall of Isuela's canyon. You'll see how it crosses N-330 and almost all the road with some short tunnels, and how it ends at the bottom of the valley. Passing is forbidden and this stretch is affected by works. If you enter this road from Nueno, I have no idea where you must turn back.
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Old December 29th, 2012, 01:02 PM   #3387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Nice. The geological formations out there are very interesting, unusual. Looks almost like an alien land. Also, it is extremely windy, at least the 3 times I drove there.
There's a crevice near Arguis press on your right on the way to Huesca.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=argui...218.07,,0,1.26
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Old December 29th, 2012, 02:42 PM   #3388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shulamithie View Post
There's a crevice near Arguis press on your right on the way to Huesca.
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=argui...218.07,,0,1.26
I was there when I was studying in high school.

My geology teacher prepared a journey for students to several geological points and one of them was that little cave. The bus stopped where it could... and when back walking by a little path to the cave down from the road!!!!!!
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Old December 30th, 2012, 06:00 PM   #3389
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M-206 Torrejón de Ardoz

What is the status of the autovía M-206 near Torrejón de Ardoz? It is a widening of the existing road to a 2x2 autovía with a new interchange with M-203, east of Madrid. According to older sources it was to open in early 2012 but then postponed to fall 2012. Has it opened?

edit: some info about M-203 would be nice as well...

the left route:

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; December 30th, 2012 at 06:08 PM.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 07:24 PM   #3390
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
I was there when I was studying in high school.
Did you eat fried eggs in Arguis?
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Old December 30th, 2012, 11:16 PM   #3391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Spanish road budget is very limited. In fact, it spends the same amount of money on the road network as the Netherlands while its population is 2.5 times larger.

Don't let the opening mileage fool you into thinking they spend massive amounts of money on the road network these days. Spanish motorway construction is very cheap with generally 3 - 7 million per kilometer. In fact there are many two-lane road projects with traffic lights in the Netherlands that are more expensive than a 4-lane autovía in Spain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Filandon View Post
And edit to say one more thing: To build a road in Spain can be relative cheap but also more expensive than in most of countries, the orography we have in Spain is not the same as in Holland, just have to count the ammount of tunnels we have... Also Calle 30 in Madrid was not specially cheap, or to do something in the area around Barcelona, the Mediterranean Coast or Northern Spain is not specially cheap either...
Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
We had a lot of cash to splash and roads are being built according to plans drawn back then. You just can't demolished a freeway which construction is already started. Budget has been cut and construction slowed, but it U/C freeways will be ultimately opened.
I was just kidding guys.
But on a serious note if one looks at some of the empty toll roads around Madrid or some of the provincial roads (EX-A1 comes to mind) one can ask if it was the best allocation of the resources.
Building motorways is one thing but these roads also have to be maintained. Spain has now one of the longest network of high quality roads. Maintenance of it will cost small fortune.
I love driving in Spain and like Spanish roads, hope they won't get neglected.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 11:36 PM   #3392
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Some of them are already neglected. Road maintenance has never been something Spain excels at. When the first-generation autovías were built in the late 80s and early 90s, no maintenance was performed at all during the next decade and by the turn of the millenium they were cracked and full of potholes, with grass breaking through the asphalt and growing between the lanes. Things improved a lot through the 2000s, but recession has worsened them again. Frozen road construction has left lots of motorways with temporary pavement and/or uneven surface indefinitely. And cracks or potholes take a long time to be fixed. Fortunately maintenance on most toll motorways is obsessive.

And I am only talking about freeways. Maintenance in non-motorway roads varies a lot, particularly in urban areas. In some of them overgrown tree roots have started to lift the road surface, and local councils just don't care.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 12:24 AM   #3393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shulamithie View Post
Did you eat fried eggs in Arguis?
Yes, of course.


By the way, it is a really interesting journey from the point of view of geology because departing from a deep valley you enter inside some hills and finish in the Pyrenees... and there are several surprises.
I remember two things... First call for the bus was really near the city. Somewhere in the middle of nothing but besides the road we had a lot of gypsum. Teacher talked about importance of that material and thanks to it, some works where cheaper (rather than importing).
Journey was around N-330, N-260, A-136 and to Banticosa baths.
After lunch the bus made a short call at a point where a little river had been changed thanks to civil works.

Four years later I remembered very well that picture... and I think that always I go in that point (every one who has crossed, sure would know the point) I remember about the first situation of the little river.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 03:28 AM   #3394
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What is about those Arguis fried eggs?
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Old December 31st, 2012, 12:05 PM   #3395
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There is a bar located on the side of the old C-136 (It became N-330 for a short time before the new alignement, i.e. one of A-23 carriageways, opened), still popular even if the E07 hasn't been there for 20 years now: https://maps.google.es/maps?hl=es&ll...,296.32,,0,2.9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
What is the status of the autovía M-206 near Torrejón de Ardoz? It is a widening of the existing road to a 2x2 autovía with a new interchange with M-203, east of Madrid. According to older sources it was to open in early 2012 but then postponed to fall 2012. Has it opened?

edit: some info about M-203 would be nice as well...

the left route:
M-203 is still stopped AFAIK. Don't know about M-206, but i'm sure works are stopped too.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 03:29 PM   #3396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
I was just kidding guys.
Building motorways is one thing but these roads also have to be maintained. Spain has now one of the longest network of high quality roads. Maintenance of it will cost small fortune.
I love driving in Spain and like Spanish roads, hope they won't get neglected.
I see you have never drive using A-92 between Seville and Malaga. It's a highway with a lot of cars (some decens of thousands cars each day) but seem to be a roller coaster. I use it often and what I hope is to stop being neglected
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:01 PM   #3397
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What is about those Arguis fried eggs?
In my stomach, of course!!!!


There are some old bars and restaurants besides the roads that remains despite those huge roadside areas. They are pretty nice and food is usually better (and cheaper) than in main areas.

It is important to know them because they are just pointed as one restaurant more.

If you are going to make a journey in that area, maybe Shulamithie, who makes this journey frequently would recommend a nice place or CNGL who lives near there.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:12 PM   #3398
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One more question about roads in the area: has the new N260 Sabiñanigo - Fiscal been living up to expectations, as in drawing more traffic to Fiscal and surrounding areas, attracting more people to use the Bielsa tunnel to France etc?

Is it better to travel from Madrid, Zaragoza and Huesca to Torla and Ordesa national park via Fiscal instead of via Biescas?

Has that narrow A-1604 road become virtually a touristic drive only with few cars (N330 - Boltaña)?
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Old December 31st, 2012, 04:53 PM   #3399
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One more question about roads in the area: has the new N260 Sabiñanigo - Fiscal been living up to expectations, as in drawing more traffic to Fiscal and surrounding areas, attracting more people to use the Bielsa tunnel to France etc?
We still have no data about that tunnel, but it was asked more because safety reasons rather than traffic.

The council (for any Spanish forumer... is there a better translation for "comarca"?) located in Central Pyrennees with capital at Ainsa is one with less population. About 3 people / km2 (as an example, the Netherlands have almost 400 people/km2).

And... it is just part of a road corner to corner of the Pyrenees. After Fiscal the road is not refurbished and there are some curves limited to 30.


Quote:
Is it better to travel from Madrid, Zaragoza and Huesca to Torla and Ordesa national park via Fiscal instead of via Biescas?
If I were you I would go via Fiscal.

Google maps says... same distance and one minute more via Fiscal but I would take that road.

Sabiñanigo-Biescas is good, as well as Sabiñanigo-Fiscal.

but Biescas-Torla is not nice. I would prefer to take Fiscal-Torla rather than Biescas-Torla just because it is in a valley instead having to "climb" near a summit with a narrow a long tunnel to change of valley.



Quote:
Has that narrow A-1604 road become virtually a touristic drive only with few cars (N330 - Boltaña)?

I've been driven only once there, in August and found only two or three cars.

In the whole road from N-330 to Boltaña there will be living less than one hundred people... and despite it, there is a little school.

The village of Aineto, after several years with no population received some young couples wanting to live there and there will be six or seven children... but there, in the middle of a forest you have a public school for children aged 3 to 12.

This is the official Education webpage
http://www.centroseducativosaragon.e...o.aspx?id=1092
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Old January 3rd, 2013, 09:57 PM   #3400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vignole View Post
4 January 2013
Tomorrow will open 143 km of C-25 in Catalonia, Spain.
That is pretty much the entire route, isn't it?

Interestingly it's not that much shorter than the old route via AP-7 and A-2. Only about 15 kilometers. But it's entirely toll free.
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