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Old February 17th, 2013, 04:17 AM   #3561
DReardon1959
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
You're not a nuisance at all!!!. Ask whatever you want and we will try to help you.

It is possible you passed near my city and I hope I would recognise most of landscapes in pictures.

Post them here or post a link and will try to help.
As arriaca has suggested I have begun a new thread with a link to photobucket where I have posted a series of photos. Thank you for any help you might offer.

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Old February 17th, 2013, 12:56 PM   #3562
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
You can't build motorways forever. At some point all major routes with high volumes are bypassed by motorways. Catalonia has one of the best motorway systems of any region in Europe.
Exactly. In fact that is true for most if not all West European countries. There are some gaps, some roads need improvements or widenings but all the major routes are already there. Spain and Portugal were the last major countries in the area with inadequate motorway networks.
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Old February 17th, 2013, 01:33 PM   #3563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post

I like the that time-lapsed motor sound. Some things: While a motorway it passes through California . Then when it suddenly becomes a single carriageway I would ignore the signs since they aren't written in Spanish as required, but they have the single carriageway warning sign. And finally around 5:00 it passes through (or, most likely, just outside) the smallest municipality in Catalonia: Puigdàlber.
It's called the Mediterranean . Some mountains and forests in California are very similar to the ones in the Spanish Mediterranean coast.

Just to point it out; Puigdàlber is the smallest municipality in Catalonia, but only in terms of size. In terms of population Sant Jaume de Frontanyà (pop. 28) wins the day, Puigdàlber left way behind at a whopping 535 people.

Language issues in these warning signs are nonsense, since they are intelligible for non-Catalan speakers. Plus, the legal warning sign is there, and road paint tells you the same story. So, in case you had a head-on collision, it would entirely be your fault
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Old February 17th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #3564
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you are right in that case but when it comes to urban signals it may get a nightmare to understand them... above all... the parking signals...
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Old February 17th, 2013, 07:26 PM   #3565
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In fact, you can not obbey some no parking signs in Catalonia. Those with text below. If they fine you, you can argue the sign was not written in Spanish as required. They have to let you to get away without paying.

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It's called the Mediterranean . Some mountains and forests in California are very similar to the ones in the Spanish Mediterranean coast.
Well, I was not thinking about that. But actually C-15 runs through California .
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Old February 17th, 2013, 07:38 PM   #3566
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If we leave out all the politics involved in the situation I really think that we got a problem with the languages and traffic signals at an European scale.... the signaling was more simple when it was designed... now it's very usual to have to add some text for clarification or exceptions and I think that some signals should be added to solve this and keep the system as iconographic as possible.

The problem is more visible in bilingual areas like Catalonia, but it's also a nightmare when crossing borders... something that is more common every day.

We need at least new signals (to be attached to existing signals) for time periods (weekdays, hours, official holidays...) and some situations (load and unload).
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Old February 18th, 2013, 11:07 AM   #3567
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Catalan is an official language in Catalonia. Spanish is also official. Signs written in Catalan are thus legal and must be obeyed whether drivers are Catalan speakers or not. There's no room for discussions. I don't know of anyone being lifted a ticket because of that; these are usually Internet hoaxes.

In the Basque country you may find the same issue. Traffic signs are written in Basque, so you get "kontuz" instead of "atención" or "jaiegunak" for "festivos" (holidays). That is because Basque is an official language there (Spanish is official, too, so some signs are written in Spanish). Same with France: the official language is French, so signs are written in French. I think it's the way it should be
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Old February 18th, 2013, 11:13 AM   #3568
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Law should be like this: signs should be on just one language per country (or at least on one single language throughout the country). So signs not in Spanish shouldn't be enforceable in Spain (regardless of whether they have other lesser language signaling accompaining the Spanish one).
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Old February 18th, 2013, 02:47 PM   #3569
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Catalan is an official language in Catalonia. Spanish is also official. Signs written in Catalan are thus legal and must be obeyed whether drivers are Catalan speakers or not. There's no room for discussions. I don't know of anyone being lifted a ticket because of that; these are usually Internet hoaxes.

In the Basque country you may find the same issue. Traffic signs are written in Basque, so you get "kontuz" instead of "atención" or "jaiegunak" for "festivos" (holidays). That is because Basque is an official language there (Spanish is official, too, so some signs are written in Spanish). Same with France: the official language is French, so signs are written in French. I think it's the way it should be
But it can cause absurd situation when Spaniard from Madrid can be fined in his own country because he didn't understand Catalan in Barcelona. I would be seriously pissed of in that situation. Luckily we don't have such problems in Poland

The solution is obviously more visual signs using pictograms rather than text.
Textual signs should be limited to absolute unavoidable minimum. They work fine in the US where everyone speaks the same language but in Europe with many people travelling to countries with other languages it just causes unnecessary problems.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 02:57 PM   #3570
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
But it can cause absurd situation when Spaniard from Madrid can be fined in his own country because he didn't understand Catalan in Barcelona. I would be seriously pissed of in that situation. Luckily we don't have such problems in Poland

The solution is obviously more visual signs using pictograms rather than text.
Textual signs should be limited to absolute unavoidable minimum. They work fine in the US where everyone speaks the same language but in Europe with many people travelling to countries with other languages it just causes unnecessary problems.
No, they cannot
Every citizen in a region with two official languages has right and obligation to understand both languages.

That makes the situation that a signal in an official language different than Spanish is absolutely legal (and be sure... it matter of opinion about that... there are pages and pages of laws)
But... every citizen has the right to communicate with administration in Spanish, so if you receive any fine, it will be bilingual.

Be sure you will not have any problem in that way. If you have you can appeal because it is not in Spanish... but they will be sure not to make a reason for appealling.


Furthermore, for all administrations, if you write them and you ask to be answered in Spanish they will use that language with no problem.
Once I asked something online to a Catalan official webpage and answer came in Catalan. I asked for Spanish translation and they sent back to me in Spanish. They also said that should I had written that I wanted answer in Spanish or should I had written the city where I live (it was not mandatory), they would have answered in Spanish (the reason about the city is because it wasn't in Catalonia and they answer in Spanish to any message received outside of Catalonia... and they were right, I did not write the name of the city in the webpage)
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Old February 18th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #3571
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
No, they cannot
Every citizen in a region with two official languages has right and obligation to understand both languages.
Your very first sentence in your post is plain false. Sorry to tell you so, but the obligation of understanding a regional language (within Spain) is not enforceable for Spanish nationals. However, they have the right to use it wherever it is an official language.

Quote:
so if you receive any fine, it will be bilingual.
In fact, courts have declared void fines written in a regional language only.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 05:55 PM   #3572
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N-430 Ossa de Montiel

The Ossa de Montiel bypass opened to traffic today. It's located along N-430 in western Albacete province. It's a 1x2 express road with 3 interchanges. 100 kph speed limit.

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Old February 18th, 2013, 08:49 PM   #3573
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Here's official press note

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_.../130218-01.htm
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Old February 18th, 2013, 10:12 PM   #3574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Every citizen in a region with two official languages has right and obligation to understand both languages.
Just to clarify. Spanish person visiting Barcelona is obliged to understand Catalan?? Including Catalan only road signs??
Something doesn't smell right here.
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Old February 18th, 2013, 10:45 PM   #3575
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of course not, you aro not obliged to understan Catalan (althought I think it would be recommendable) even if you move to Catalonia... supposedly you will be able to do everything in Spanish... there are noticeable exceptions like education where the main language is Catalan... and... traffic signs... you would have a great disadvantage for opting to a public work in the Catalonian administration if you aren't proficient in Catalan.

Also Catalonian is the default language for the administration there so you might need to ask for translations sometimes...
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Old February 19th, 2013, 01:45 AM   #3576
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Catalan is an official language in Catalonia. Spanish is also official. Signs written in Catalan are thus legal and must be obeyed whether drivers are Catalan speakers or not. There's no room for discussions. I don't know of anyone being lifted a ticket because of that; these are usually Internet hoaxes.

In the Basque country you may find the same issue. Traffic signs are written in Basque, so you get "kontuz" instead of "atención" or "jaiegunak" for "festivos" (holidays). That is because Basque is an official language there (Spanish is official, too, so some signs are written in Spanish). Same with France: the official language is French, so signs are written in French. I think it's the way it should be
NO

The signs written only in catalan ARE NOT LEGAL.

Let's check the spanish (also catalan) traffic law:

(From Real Decreto Legislativo 339/1990, de 2 de marzo,
por el que se aprueba el texto articulado de la Ley sobre Tráfico, Circulación de Vehículos a Motor y Seguridad Vial.
)
Quote:
Artículo 56. Idioma de las señales
Las indicaciones escritas de las señales se expresarán al menos en el idioma
español oficial del Estado


Article 56. Language of the signals
The indications of the signals are written at least expressed in the language
Spanish Official State

(From Reglamento General de Circulación)

Quote:
Artículo 138. Idioma de las señales.
Las indicaciones escritas que se incluyan o acompañen a los paneles de señalización de las vías públicas, e inscripciones, figurarán en idioma castellano y, además, en la lengua oficial de la Comunidad Autónoma reconocida en el respectivo Estatuto de Autonomía, cuando la señal esté ubicada en el ámbito territorial de dicha Comunidad.
Los núcleos de población y demás topónimos serán designados en su denominación oficial y, cuando fuese necesario a efectos de identificación, en castellano.

Article 138. Language of the signals.
The written instructions that are included or accompanying signaling panels roads, and inscriptions, appear in Castilian language and also the official language of the Autonomous Community recognized in the respective Statute of Autonomy, when the signal is located in the territory of the Community.
These settlements and other toponyms shall be appointed in his official name and, when necessary for identification purposes, in Castilian.
Please people, when we're talking about legal staff... PLEASE CHECK FIRST THE FUKIN' LAW.
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Old February 19th, 2013, 10:39 AM   #3577
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Well, you can argue that Catalan is also a Spanish language
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Old February 19th, 2013, 01:25 PM   #3578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geogregor View Post
Just to clarify. Spanish person visiting Barcelona is obliged to understand Catalan?? Including Catalan only road signs??
Something doesn't smell right here.
Welcome to Hispanistan

PD: There may be cases (fortunately there is widespread) in which to ask a person in Spanish, he will respond in Catalan
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Old February 19th, 2013, 09:19 PM   #3579
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Isn't this a bit pointless discussion? It can't be that difficult to learn few words in a related language.

Let's move back to Spanish/Catalan roads, though. Plenty to discuss there
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Old February 20th, 2013, 11:04 AM   #3580
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Yes, this is not the place for such a discussion. My apologizes for getting involved in it.
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