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Old June 18th, 2013, 08:39 PM   #3681
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http://www.laopiniondemalaga.es/mala...te/544230.html

That really is absolutely ridiculous! A massive 2x4-freeway for 27 500 AADT...
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Old June 18th, 2013, 09:41 PM   #3682
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It's built for summer traffic.

They recently completed the widening of AP-6 to 2x3 lanes for 28.000 AADT northwest of Madrid.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 04:55 PM   #3683
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A 2x4 (partly even 2x6) motorway with the highest standards among european motorways is not justified just for summer traffic. No doubt why they have the crisis!

Think about all the saturated 2x2 and 2x1-laned roads in the Netherlands or Germany or Finland or Norway etc, and meanwhile in countries with a vast fiscal crisis they are building this for like nobody, with EU funds. Why don't we get EU funds for our actually real needs? Of course this is no place for discussing that...
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Old June 19th, 2013, 04:58 PM   #3684
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How are you so sure this is built with EU funds? Spain plays about even with EU contributions.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #3685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
How are you so sure this is built with EU funds? Spain plays about even with EU contributions.
I'm not sure about this project in particular, but a vast part of the Spanish motorway system was built with foreign money. This led to a situation where they had money to build crazy projects like this or 300 Km long freeways with AADT 1000-5000. I mean, they could had built Hiperronda as 2x2 or widen Ronda Oeste to 2x3 and 2x4.

Of course, in the other hand my country's infrastructure fund is exceptionally low and should be doubled and even that would not cover the needs, but it seems like they haven't learnt anything from the crisis in Spain. For example, the new ring of Seville is megalomaniac. M-45, 3+3+3+3 for AADT 70 000...
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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:19 PM   #3686
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What do you mean with "a vast part"? It has been said in this thread that our motorway construction cost is among the lowest in Europe, so building motorways for seemingly low AADTs was more sensible than in other countries such as the Netherlands. Of course we made mistakes such as A-40 or Madrid's radiales, but our motorway construction pace was not megalomaniac at all.

As for SE-40, only half of it is going to actually get built and it will take many more years than expected, so there's no room to complain. Motorways are being built as financing is available.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #3687
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Of course we made mistakes such as A-40 or Madrid's radiales, but our motorway construction pace was not megalomaniac at all.
No no, not megalomaniac at all. Doubling existing motorway routes with other non tolled motorways is not megalomaniac
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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:39 PM   #3688
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There has been some kind of building craze, especially due to the very low construction cost of motorways, some were as low as € 2.5 million per kilometer. Most other countries spend more than that on two-lane roads. The standard action was to build an Autovía if a road needs upgrading.

It had tremendous benefits in terms of traffic safety. Spain came a long way in reducing traffic fatalities and is now in the top 5 safest countries in Europe. That was unimaginable in the 1990s. It's safer than Germany and all other southern European countries.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #3689
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Have anyone glanced the A-22?
The strech remained to be done is still without project!!!!!
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Old June 19th, 2013, 07:46 PM   #3690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
I'm not sure about this project in particular, but a vast part of the Spanish motorway system was built with foreign money. This led to a situation where they had money to build crazy projects like this or 300 Km long freeways with AADT 1000-5000. I mean, they could had built Hiperronda as 2x2 or widen Ronda Oeste to 2x3 and 2x4.

Of course, in the other hand my country's infrastructure fund is exceptionally low and should be doubled and even that would not cover the needs, but it seems like they haven't learnt anything from the crisis in Spain. For example, the new ring of Seville is megalomaniac. M-45, 3+3+3+3 for AADT 70 000...
Of course you don't know ANYTHING about European economical administration, spanish infraestructures and, more concrete, about the HORRIBLE situation of the traffic in Seville (my city), so it would be better for you to don't talk about this...
If you have been before in my country, I really don't know, but I have the feeling that if you came was with a lot of "prejudices?" before, so you haven't appreciate the reality of it.
This forum is not for criticising without arguments (I even think that you did it because of some typical "racists" ideas about southern europe)

And to the rest of people, sorry for the off-topic, but writing "the new ring of Seville is megalomaniac" is something as stupid as I never saw before, so I had to reply.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 07:50 PM   #3691
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Well, for starters, the SE-40 around Sevilla is generally no more than 2x3 lanes wide (4x2 lanes in the Río Guadalquivir Tunnel for technical reasons). Only the southern approach of the A-92 interchange is considerably wider due to several roadway splits.

The Sevilla motorway network is not as good as most other Spanish cities. The SE-30 is very busy and partially even undivided and a surface street. SE-40 is a sensible investment, but I do think the northern half could wait until better economic times.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 08:37 PM   #3692
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SE-30 is a very substandard ringroad. It does not do a complete circle around Seville and it has a role that's too important for its size. SE-40 is just what the city needs. Pictures of interchanges where there are 2x5 lanes may seem impressive, but that's all. The northern part is indefinitely postponed so there's no need to argue about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
No no, not megalomaniac at all. Doubling existing motorway routes with other non tolled motorways is not megalomaniac
I specified that we made mistakes, such as Madrid radiales, which are tolled motorways parallel to other motorways. What I wanted to say is that it was megalomaniac. But motorways such as A-66, A-50 or A-22 were not a waste of money nor something we couldn't afford. At that time the Spanish government had no debt issues and our economy was booming so investing in cost-effective infrastructure was a sensible decision.

Spanish banks and corporations investing lots of money in tolled motorways that were never meant to reach traffic levels to make them profitable were not sensible and have part of the blame of today's problems. But building infrastructure such as A-8, A-7 or A-23 at a time when we could afford it is not something we can regret.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 08:55 PM   #3693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Sevilla motorway network is not as good as most other Spanish cities. The SE-30 is very busy and partially even undivided and a surface street. SE-40 is a sensible investment, but I do think the northern half could wait until better economic times.
For the traffic each day, the northern part can wait, but there is another problem that shouldn't wait as much: the northen part of SE-30 is a used by a lot of cars doing trips (going from northwest Spain or west Andalucia to Portugal or the very populated region at the west of Seville). These cars obviously would try to do their trips at a speed or 120 km/h, but the north of SE-30 is more similar to a avenue than to a highway (officially is not a highway), in fact, it has traffic lights, crosswalks etc... so cars are not allowed to go faster than 50 km/h.
Is not a real necessity to make the SE-40 in the north of Spain, but there is need to do something in there, maybe by changing the route of SE-30 or by building the northern part of a 2x2 highway that has been projected with the name of SE-35, which wouldn't need to be a complete ring (similar to number 2 in this photo):
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Old June 19th, 2013, 09:22 PM   #3694
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The problem with toll roads is that they need substantial revenue from the first month to service their debts. Private toll roads are often not feasible in areas with slow traffic growth from a low base. Government-funded toll roads are a more sensible solution in such situations. The government pays for construction and gets its investment back over time, without the urgency private toll road operators have.

There are several issues with toll roads;

* forecasted traffic is too high
* forecasted traffic growth occurs at a much slower pace in practice
* toll road bonds often get downgraded within months of opening the toll facility due to these factors.
* toll roads need a constant stream of revenue, they are poor at adapting to changing economic circumstances and traffic decline (Spain being an extreme example).

It's important to consider that the actual construction cost of these toll roads around Madrid were very low. What kills them are the financing costs. Most of these toll roads would be viable if they only had to pay back the initial investment cost.

Toll roads are interesting for the government not only because they don't have to pay for construction, but also because they don't have to pay for financing cost (which would have otherwise been added to the government debt). It's important to understand though that road infrastructure is one of the smallest budgets of all government ministries, often under 1% of total government spending. For example the Dutch government spends € 2.5 billion on roads and € 95 billion on health care.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 10:03 PM   #3695
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Originally Posted by adevahi View Post
Of course you don't know ANYTHING about European economical administration, spanish infraestructures and, more concrete, about the HORRIBLE situation of the traffic in Seville (my city), so it would be better for you to don't talk about this...
If you have been before in my country, I really don't know, but I have the feeling that if you came was with a lot of "prejudices?" before, so you haven't appreciate the reality of it.
This forum is not for criticising without arguments (I even think that you did it because of some typical "racists" ideas about southern europe)

And to the rest of people, sorry for the off-topic, but writing "the new ring of Seville is megalomaniac" is something as stupid as I never saw before, so I had to reply.
I have lived in Spain and actually hablo perfectamente español. SE-40 could had been already done if it would had been build more modestly, 2x3 and not with such obscenities as for example the second widest bridge in the world.

And second: two parallel motorway-policy. That is really unheard-of spending elsewhere. Why do we need AP-2 and A-2, for example, when we have the perfect AP-2 already? Or A-4 Seville-Cadiz, when we have AP-4?

Why is M-45 so giant? Wouldn't 2x3 be sufficient for it's traffic of max. 80 000 AADT? With the money that was spent in a double width it could had been possible to build some really important projects, like nothern M-30 or upgrading radial Autovías.

All this would of course be cool if money was endless. Spanish road building has been remarkable, but 2x4-2x5 for AADT 27 000 in Málaga is really way too much and a waste of money. Meanwhile we have a really sub-standard A-7 2x2 in Costa del Sol with AADT 100 000 and several roads in that area that are just little streets "caminos" 2x1 with AADT up to 30 000 with no upgrading even projected. A 2x4-motorway from Fuengirola to Coín?
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Last edited by RV; June 19th, 2013 at 10:14 PM.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 10:30 PM   #3696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The problem with toll roads is that they need substantial revenue from the first month to service their debts. Private toll roads are often not feasible in areas with slow traffic growth from a low base. Government-funded toll roads are a more sensible solution in such situations. The government pays for construction and gets its investment back over time, without the urgency private toll road operators have.

There are several issues with toll roads;

* forecasted traffic is too high
* forecasted traffic growth occurs at a much slower pace in practice
* toll road bonds often get downgraded within months of opening the toll facility due to these factors.
* toll roads need a constant stream of revenue, they are poor at adapting to changing economic circumstances and traffic decline (Spain being an extreme example).

It's important to consider that the actual construction cost of these toll roads around Madrid were very low. What kills them are the financing costs. Most of these toll roads would be viable if they only had to pay back the initial investment cost.

Toll roads are interesting for the government not only because they don't have to pay for construction, but also because they don't have to pay for financing cost (which would have otherwise been added to the government debt). It's important to understand though that road infrastructure is one of the smallest budgets of all government ministries, often under 1% of total government spending. For example the Dutch government spends € 2.5 billion on roads and € 95 billion on health care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
I have lived in Spain and actually hablo perfectamente español. SE-40 could had been already done if it would had been build more modestly, 2x3 and not with such obscenities as for example the second widest bridge in the world.

And second: two parallel motorway-policy. That is really unheard-of spending elsewhere. Why do we need AP-2 and A-2, for example, when we have the perfect AP-2 already? Or A-4 Seville-Cadiz, when we have AP-4?

Why is M-45 so giant? Wouldn't 2x3 be sufficient for it's traffic of max. 80 000 AADT? With the money that was spent in a double width it could had been possible to build some really important projects, like nothern M-30 or upgrading radial Autovías.

All this would of course be cool if money was endless. Spanish road building has been remarkable, but 2x4-2x5 for AADT 27 000 in Málaga is really way too much and a waste of money. Meanwhile we have a really sub-standard A-7 2x2 in Costa del Sol with AADT 100 000 and several roads in that area that are just little streets "caminos" 2x1 with AADT up to 30 000 with no upgrading even projected. A 2x4-motorway from Fuengirola to Coín?
Parallel motorways such as R-2 or AP-41 were never meant to be profitable. Some people needed to fill their pockets with the road construction business, there's no need to talk about the causes of its bankruptcy.

A-7 in Costa del Sol is paralleled by tolled AP-7, which is not bankrupt by the way. Of course a parallel, toll-free motorway would be better, but it would have been very expensive and A-7 + AP-7 system does its job quite well. No toll on current AP-7 would mean 24/7 traffic jams. Hiperronda in Málaga is a blessing for a route with such seasonal traffic peaks, though it does not help commuter traffic around Málaga and its inmediate surroundings. Spanish urban planning, or lack of it, means that some routes are terribly congested and the current toll/toll-free duality is the best we could do with the available resources. Same happens in Maresme area, with C-32 and N-II. No tolls would have meant no motorway for 30 more years and that would have been unbearable for N-II. On the other hand, this non-sensible urban planning means that many urban roads carry traffic densities which they were not designed for. True. But blame it on the horrendous urban planning on coastal areas and not on our road construction policy.

And there's no A-4 paralleling AP-4. There are just two key stretches to funnel commuters around Seville and Cádiz metro areas. In fact, AP-4 is toll-free in Cádiz metro. There were plans for twinning N-IV between both ends of A-4 but they have been slowly shelved. A-2 has no parallel AP-2. In Catalonia, they follow completely different routes, and serve different cities, separated by thick mountain ranges. And in Aragón, there's no toll-free motorway.

As I said before, there were terrible mistakes such as R-3, R-4 or AP-41, but Spanish motorway construction has been overally sensible and adequately sized.
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Old June 19th, 2013, 10:37 PM   #3697
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Old June 19th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #3698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
SE-40 could had been already done if it would had been build more modestly, 2x3 and not with such obscenities as for example the second widest bridge in the world.
SE-40 is 96% 2x3 lanes, there is only a section with 2x4 lanes with a length of 2.2 km. The second widest bridge (64 m) is due to the intersection with A-92.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 12:59 AM   #3699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Parallel motorways such as R-2 or AP-41 were never meant to be profitable. Some people needed to fill their pockets with the road construction business, there's no need to talk about the causes of its bankruptcy.

[...]

As I said before, there were terrible mistakes such as R-3, R-4 or AP-41, but Spanish motorway construction has been overally sensible and adequately sized.
In fact AP-41 could have made sense with the original plans... being the missing part more important than the built one. But it doesn't make sense as is...

It still could make some sense as a free motorway.... as it's a much better route from/to Toledo/west Madrid but it's a poor alternative to A-42.
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Old June 20th, 2013, 01:21 AM   #3700
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There have been some stroooong rainy days in the Pyrenees, hence some towns have been without any access for a while.

This is A-139 near Benasque in Aragon.

source: heraldo.es

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