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Old June 20th, 2013, 04:54 PM   #3701
Escargot
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The only good road in all the zone...
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Old June 20th, 2013, 06:37 PM   #3702
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That's true... it is an area with the highest peaks in the Pyrenees and there are not good roads (and some of them only in some parts). This was one of them
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Old June 20th, 2013, 11:41 PM   #3703
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What is this circle road?

Initially I thought of a test road of the nearby car reseller depot (or at least it looks like one), but that road is linked to the normal network.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 12:21 AM   #3704
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
What is this circle road?

Initially I thought of a test road of the nearby car reseller depot (or at least it looks like one), but that road is linked to the normal network.
The near building is a prison, maybe that explains it but I don't know how
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Old June 21st, 2013, 07:54 AM   #3705
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Dunno, but that photo is from 2002, on bing map it's diferent.

http://binged.it/14mgDGP
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:25 PM   #3706
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A small segment of A-21 near Tiermas will open next Monday. It's 4.4 kilometers long.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:33 PM   #3707
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Thank you for the information. I've quoted you in the Aragonese roads' thread.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 05:50 PM   #3708
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do you have a map about that segment?
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Old June 21st, 2013, 06:00 PM   #3709
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http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42...om=14&layers=M

It runs from the temporary offramp immediately west of the provincial border to the first exit at Tiermas.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 06:02 PM   #3710
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There is a problem... we will have a bottleneck for some kilometres besides Yesa reservoir, and it's the most difficult side.

But at least, A-21 goes on.
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Old June 21st, 2013, 06:05 PM   #3711
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Thank you, Chris. So the highway won't end abruptly after the tunnel anymore.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 03:45 PM   #3712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
There is a problem... we will have a bottleneck for some kilometres besides Yesa reservoir, and it's the most difficult side.

But at least, A-21 goes on.
I don't think this road will attract enough traffic to create a bottleneck there. A-21 is not yet consolidated as a big transit route. Maybe when A-23 in Monrepós pass is finished it will start to make sense, but today is a bunch of stubs.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 07:40 PM   #3713
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Parallel motorways such as R-2 or AP-41 were never meant to be profitable. Some people needed to fill their pockets with the road construction business, there's no need to talk about the causes of its bankruptcy.

A-7 in Costa del Sol is paralleled by tolled AP-7, which is not bankrupt by the way. Of course a parallel, toll-free motorway would be better, but it would have been very expensive and A-7 + AP-7 system does its job quite well. No toll on current AP-7 would mean 24/7 traffic jams. Hiperronda in Málaga is a blessing for a route with such seasonal traffic peaks, though it does not help commuter traffic around Málaga and its inmediate surroundings. Spanish urban planning, or lack of it, means that some routes are terribly congested and the current toll/toll-free duality is the best we could do with the available resources. Same happens in Maresme area, with C-32 and N-II. No tolls would have meant no motorway for 30 more years and that would have been unbearable for N-II. On the other hand, this non-sensible urban planning means that many urban roads carry traffic densities which they were not designed for. True. But blame it on the horrendous urban planning on coastal areas and not on our road construction policy.

And there's no A-4 paralleling AP-4. There are just two key stretches to funnel commuters around Seville and Cádiz metro areas. In fact, AP-4 is toll-free in Cádiz metro. There were plans for twinning N-IV between both ends of A-4 but they have been slowly shelved. A-2 has no parallel AP-2. In Catalonia, they follow completely different routes, and serve different cities, separated by thick mountain ranges. And in Aragón, there's no toll-free motorway.

As I said before, there were terrible mistakes such as R-3, R-4 or AP-41, but Spanish motorway construction has been overally sensible and adequately sized.

What I was trying to say is that it's nonsense for me to build a parallel motorway when the existing one can be upgraded

It's no doubt Hiperronda was needed - what I'm saying is that 2x2 or 2x3 lanes would be perfectly enough and much more rentable.

I know there is no A-4 between Seville and Cadiz, but I don't understand the plans to built it, when a motorway between these two cities already exists - same as the famous N-II Alfajarín-Fraga - AP-2 is completely enough! If the toll is so problematic, then low it or quit it, it would be thousands of times more rentable than a new motorway, including the fact that these two perfect existing motorways would lose their traffic.

The only places where parallel motorways really make sense are the densely populated coastal areas in Andalucía, Levant and Catalonia.

Another strange thing: I just can not understand, why are the streets in new neighborhoods so freaking huge! Layouts of 5+5 or 2+4+4+2 and even 10-lane roundabouts can be most notoriously found in Madrid and Valencia areas with really tiny AADT values. In Valencia 4+4 or 5+5 seems to be the standard.

Last edited by RV; June 22nd, 2013 at 08:10 PM.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 07:51 PM   #3714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
I don't think this road will attract enough traffic to create a bottleneck there. A-21 is not yet consolidated as a big transit route. Maybe when A-23 in Monrepós pass is finished it will start to make sense, but today is a bunch of stubs.
Not because a traffic increase but because exit/entering the motorway.

I remember when the A-23 was built. First of all Zaragoza-Villanueva. Six years later Almudevar-Huesca. So, Villanueva-Almudevar was a really bottleneck.



Anyway... a really good news
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 07:53 PM   #3715
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a very short news in a local newspaper
http://www.diariodelaltoaragon.es/No...aspx?Id=818172

and it is not its province indeed. This is, because a strange province bound, that corner is Zaragoza province and this local newspaper is related only about Huesca province (very near there)
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 08:27 PM   #3716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
Another strange thing: I just can not understand, why are the streets in new neighborhoods so freaking huge! Layouts of 5+5 or 2+4+4+2 and even 10-lane roundabouts can be most notoriously found in Madrid and Valencia areas with really tiny AADT values. In Valencia 4+4 or 5+5 seems to be the standard.
Many of these suburbs have relatively high density, which means more trips per km² thus a need for wider roads. For example Vallecas near Madrid has wide roads with low volumes, but that's because the majority of the planned neighborhood was not built due to the economic crisis.

If all those neighborhoods along M-45 and M-50 east of Madrid were built then I don't think these motorways were overdesigned. It would have added hundreds of thousands of inhabitants in a relatively small area.
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Old June 22nd, 2013, 11:41 PM   #3717
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When these motorways where designed, driving in an outer ring Madrid motorway was a nightmare. Is the number of motorways built the best decission to solve it? That's matter of opinion. Maybe they could have built the same number of kilometres but in a different scheme
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 01:53 AM   #3718
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^Was not talkin' bout motorways, but common streets. 4+4 or 5+5 with service roads is quite a width for just a main street of a suburb.
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 09:23 AM   #3719
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Sorry because misunserstanding. Hence I agree. I remember a 2x2 motorway with 3x3 service lanes LOL
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Old June 23rd, 2013, 02:52 PM   #3720
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Yes, ok, I agree that inside a city more than 3+3 is never needed
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