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Old August 14th, 2013, 04:05 PM   #3781
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Northbound. Part 2.

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A-27 20 by Vignole, on Flickr

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A-27 21 by Vignole, on Flickr

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Old August 14th, 2013, 04:10 PM   #3782
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Southbound. Part 1.

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A-27 30 by Vignole, on Flickr

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Old August 14th, 2013, 04:13 PM   #3783
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Southbound. Part 2.

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A-27 40 by Vignole, on Flickr

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A-27 41 by Vignole, on Flickr

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Old August 15th, 2013, 01:43 PM   #3784
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
On that 1979 map, it is strange to think they completed a highway on the Mediterranean and other linking Zaragoza with Bilbao before they even linked Madrid with Zaragoza or Madrid with anywhere else!
It makes some sense. There was few money to build motorways, and the ones built first where the ones that carried most traffic. Plus, AP-2/AP-68 system was though in a clever way so that they serve both north-south and east-west traffic. And AP-2+AP-7 serve Barcelona and Tarragona at the same time.

In my opinion, it was a very clever plan. At that time, the first 30 kilometers or so of most radial roads in Madrid suburbs were already dual carriageway, and traffic further from the capital was not high enough yet.
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Old August 15th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #3785
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
That plan had nonsense because they didn't choose the most used roads.
Well i requested the maps just because as that time they made paid motorways that had to depend on their own traffic without much public money involved, apart from some costly insurance of the exchange rate....The point is that they started building whatever they wanted to, with a programme based on politics, just after 1985 when Spain entered the UE and received money for infraestructures.

Regarding trains, Spanish high speed lines are just the example of a politically biased and wrong criteria, as for today there is no Mediterranean corridor and the conexions of Zaragoza and the basque country are not done, while they are heavily used. On the other hand there built or under construction are high speed lines in Galicia, Asturias to the mediterranean....regarding motorways those can serve to promote poor areas at a reasonable cost, while high speed lines should be based upon demand, because they are too costly.

By the way the most useful road map will be one of 1987 or 1988, instead of 1985, the number of kilometer autovias y autopistas matches todays kilometers of high speed lines. Find here the historical evolution of Spanish roads


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Old August 16th, 2013, 12:23 AM   #3786
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
On that 1979 map, it is strange to think they completed a highway on the Mediterranean and other linking Zaragoza with Bilbao before they even linked Madrid with Zaragoza or Madrid with anywhere else!
The story goes something like this. When the Spanish authorities planned in the 60's a motorway network they planed 6 motorways radiating from Madrid as well some others, and they had the intention to give priority to those 6 motorways. However they had not the money to build them and thus approached the World Bank for financing. The answer of the World Bank was simple, they would only finance projects which could make economic sense. Due to the lower traffic level of the radial roads compared to the Mediterranean corridor and the Ebro corridor, these last two were given priority, in spite of the Spanish planing. It is interesting to compare the situation back then and the one in the late 80's/90's when money for infrastructure had become abundant and the choice for the high speed railways were made. With plenty of money the Spanish authorities began the new railway net... from Madrid.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 12:41 AM   #3787
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It is true. The six radial motorways were planned but never done.

In fact, when traffic increased in A2, a tolled motorway was planned. It was suggested to arrive not to Zaragoza but upper on Ebro valley because they have poorer links to Madrid but 60% would be paralel.

When the HSL was under project, tolled motorway project was dropped out.

They left the tolled R2 in the nearby of Madrid and later the A15
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Old August 16th, 2013, 03:36 AM   #3788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
Regarding trains, Spanish high speed lines are just the example of a politically biased and wrong criteria, as for today there is no Mediterranean corridor and the conexions of Zaragoza and the basque country are not done, while they are heavily used. On the other hand there built or under construction are high speed lines in Galicia, Asturias to the mediterranean....regarding motorways those can serve to promote poor areas at a reasonable cost, while high speed lines should be based upon demand, because they are too costly.
Your comment is not fair, it's clear that the main background of those decisions are also economic, you only have to see the orography of the coastlines.

I could extend my argumentation but it's off-topic.

Something similar happened with motorways, although not the same as the motorways could be isolated and a isolated HSR is useless.

First we had a radial network, not the most used paths but it was cheaper and giving a good service as well.

Later, when we got the money, out motorway network ceased to be radial.

I'm sure it will happen again with our HSR, we will get a radial network and after that we will get gradually the network messed.
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Old August 16th, 2013, 11:38 AM   #3789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
Your comment is not fair, it's clear that the main background of those decisions are also economic, you only have to see the orography of the coastlines.

I could extend my argumentation but it's off-topic.

Something similar happened with motorways, although not the same as the motorways could be isolated and a isolated HSR is useless.

First we had a radial network, not the most used paths but it was cheaper and giving a good service as well.

Later, when we got the money, out motorway network ceased to be radial.

I'm sure it will happen again with our HSR, we will get a radial network and after that we will get gradually the network messed.
Our motorway network wasn't radial from the beginning . Among the first long-distance motorways to see construction were current AP-7 and AP-68.

But your point is valid: our coastlines are very mountainous and any infrastructure is very expensive to build. Motorways radiating from Madrid were built more or less in that order: least complex ones (A-2, A-4, A-6 until Benavente) first, more complicated ones after. Last radial motorway to get built was A-6 through the extremely steep Piedrafita pass. Some non-radial motorways such as A-8, AP-7 or AP-9 were more or less complete by that time though.
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Old August 17th, 2013, 02:41 PM   #3790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OriK View Post
Your comment is not fair, it's clear that the main background of those decisions are also economic, you only have to see the orography of the coastlines.
Sorry that is a tricky argument that you are using, the mediterranean corridor from Murcia to the french border and the corridors from Zaragoza to the basque country are not expensive to build and should be already done, just like the motorways where done at the time, they made them including economic cost of course, they where to be paid by users.

Other places are expensive to be built, the Almeria to algeciras corridor and the San Sebastian to Ferrol corridor, those motorways are being finished built nowadays at a very high cost, i never recommend to make those high speed lines, except for the Malaga Algeciras, very heavily used.

There is no economics behind the radial model, i am sorry, just biased political arguments.
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Old August 18th, 2013, 04:41 AM   #3791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viriatuus View Post
The story goes something like this. When the Spanish authorities planned in the 60's a motorway network they planed 6 motorways radiating from Madrid as well some others, and they had the intention to give priority to those 6 motorways. However they had not the money to build them and thus approached the World Bank for financing. The answer of the World Bank was simple, they would only finance projects which could make economic sense. Due to the lower traffic level of the radial roads compared to the Mediterranean corridor and the Ebro corridor, these last two were given priority, in spite of the Spanish planing. It is interesting to compare the situation back then and the one in the late 80's/90's when money for infrastructure had become abundant and the choice for the high speed railways were made. With plenty of money the Spanish authorities began the new railway net... from Madrid.
But the Ebro corridor had very low traffic levels back in those days!
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Old August 18th, 2013, 10:28 AM   #3792
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The Ebro Valley is an important agricultural region, probably the most important in inland Spain. That may have been a factor to construct AP-68 (and AP-2 to connect it with the coast).
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Old August 18th, 2013, 11:36 AM   #3793
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It's one of the busiest long-distance corridors in Spain. It's the easiest way between Catalonia and the Basque Country, two of Spain's wealthiest regions.
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Old August 18th, 2013, 03:16 PM   #3794
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Hi.

I have been looking for the GDP per capita statistics in the webpage of the Spanish statistics institute. I haven't found them, but I have found the GDP and population numbers in different sections, so I've just divided with an Excel sheet.

This is the list:



If we take a look at the map...:


... we will see a relationship with this other map:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajch View Post
The non-urban motorways shown in mainland Spain are:

-Burgos-Armiñón
-Zaragoza-Mediterráneo

-Sevilla-Cádiz
-Madrid-Adanero
-French border in La Junquera-Alicante
-French border in Irún-Bilbao

-Ferrol-Portuguese border in Tui
-Tudela-Pamplona-Irurtzun
-Asturias' "Y"
-León-Oviedo

-Bilbao-Zaragoza


Most of them were built in the "rich" part of the country. The exceptions were somehow justified:

-Cádiz was an important port and Seville is the most important city in SW Spain.

-The Galician coast has 3 important ports (Ferrol, Coruña and Vigo) and a high population density, also the old national road was a pain.

-Asturias was for decades one of the richest areas of Spain. There was a lot of metal industry and mining.
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Old August 18th, 2013, 07:29 PM   #3795
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You said it all!
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Old August 18th, 2013, 09:56 PM   #3796
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
But the Ebro corridor had very low traffic levels back in those days!
This where the daily vehicules using the corridor in 1980, according to the available data of the Spanish ministry, you can have an idea of the intensity by looking at the image i have posted, if you want to see the data follow the link and wait because the png image is around 20 megas. As en example between Zaragoza and Tudela there where between 6.000 and 10.000 vehicules per day.





http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/4...afico_1980.jpg

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Old August 19th, 2013, 02:36 AM   #3797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rayancito View Post
As en example between Zaragoza and Tudela there where between 6.000 and 10.000 vehicules per day.
You said it. That is very low, and actually doesn't justify a freeway - compared to plenty of much more heavily used common roads back in the day. So what was the thing with the Ebro corridor?
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Old August 19th, 2013, 02:52 AM   #3798
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
You said it. That is very low, and actually doesn't justify a freeway - compared to plenty of much more heavily used common roads back in the day. So what was the thing with the Ebro corridor?
That was a lot of traffic at the time, please follow the link, take a look at the map and compare with other roads, then you can come back to me
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Old August 20th, 2013, 02:04 PM   #3799
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A49 - Close to the portuguese border



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Old August 23rd, 2013, 02:40 PM   #3800
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A-7 in Tarragona:



Video was filmed one month before the opening of A-27, so its interchange is not yet signed.
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