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Old September 4th, 2013, 10:11 PM   #3821
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Viagem de Córdoba a Caleta de Vélez



149. Acesso A4


150. A4 - saída Plaza de Andaluzia


151. A4 - saída A45 Málaga


152. A45


153.


154.


155. A45 - saída Fernan Nuñez


156.


157. A45 - vista para La Rambla


158.


159. A45 - saída La Rambla


160. A45 - saída Aguilar de la Frontera


161.


162. A45 - saída Puente Genil


163. A45 - saída Monturque


164.


165. A45 - saída Lucena (norte)


166. A45 - saída Lucena (sul)


167. Cadeira Gigante


168. A45 - saída Encinas Reales


169. A45 - saída Benameji


170. A45 - saída El Tejar


171.


172. A45 - Ponte Rio Genil


173. A45 - saída El Tejar


174. A45 - Entrada na Província de Málaga


175.


176. A45 - saída Alameda


177. A45 - saída Antequera


178. A45 - saída A92 Antequera


179. A45 - saída Antequera


180. A45 - saída Antequera


181.


182.


183.


184.


185.


186.


187. A45 - saída A92M Granada


188.


189.


190.


191. A45 - saída AP-46


192.


193. A45 - saída AP-46


194. AP46


195.


196. Área de Serviço Cortijo Robledo


197. AP46 e A45


198.


199.


200. Portagem AP46 - Facto curioso, os veículos ligeiros pagam 4,90€ e os pesados 3,10€, mas se voltasse a passar nas próximas 24 horas só pagava 1,50€ apresentando o talão que me deram na portagem.


201.


202. AP46 - Túnel La Zambra


203.


204. AP46 - Túnel Cerro Léchon


205.


206. AP46 - Túnel del Cerro Negrete


207. AP46 - saída A7 Málaga


208.


209. A7 - saída Ciudad Jardin


210.


211. A7 - saída A45 Córdoba


212.


213.


214. A7 - saída Limonar


215. A7 - saída Pedregalejo


216. A7 - saída El Palo


217. A7 - saída La Cala del Moral


218.


219. A7 - saída MA24 Totalán


220. A7 - saída Benajarafe


221.


222. A7 - saída Cajiz


223. A7 - saída Vélez Málaga


224. A7 - saída Caleta de Vélez


225. A7 - saída Algarrobo


226. MA103 - Caleta de Vélez


Próximas fotos: dia 2 - viagem de Caleta de Vélez a Granada

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Old September 4th, 2013, 10:19 PM   #3822
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertocsc View Post
I have already seen Gibraltar in GSV some months ago... :/

By the way, I'll check that new imaginery.

And I want to share some images about Spanish road classification in Ciudad Real:






That's even more complicated than I thought.

Someone on this thread explained it all a couple of years ago, and I thought I understood it (not the history - the current system), but the "carreteras de ámbito urbano" and "carreteras basicas - de alta capacidad" I didn't know about.
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Old September 4th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #3823
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Carreteras de ámbito urbano are like the northern by-pass of Soria (SO-20), which is also a motorway in the southern part, or the by-pass of Segovia (SG-20).
Basically, they are what Alejandro tells in the next post. In USA, together with Urban Motorways, I think they would be called Business roads (bypasses ending in 0, spurs in any other number).

Carretera básicas de alta capacidad is the name given in Castilla-La Mancha to what you could call a State Freeway. In other regions of Spain they would just just call it Autovía/Autopista autonómica, but that would imply it fully complies with motorway standards (here CM-42 does, but CM-10 doesn't).

Last edited by albertocsc; September 5th, 2013 at 12:18 AM.
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Old September 4th, 2013, 11:05 PM   #3824
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This is, those orbital roads or that stuff in the nearby of a city that aren't motorways, just 1x1
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:43 AM   #3825
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A video from one of the helicopters that are used to enforce the laws at roads.

This helicopter (Pegasus) is the only one whith a speed cam... and 35479 drivers were fined by it few weeks ago in a operation that lasted from the 19th of August to the 25th of the same month.

http://sdp.terra.com/preplayer/defau...ntentid=493949
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:01 PM   #3826
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Originally Posted by albertocsc View Post
And I want to share some images about Spanish road classification in Ciudad Real:

And this is why I think that it should be the provinces (or the autonomous regions in some cases) the only administration to manage all kinds of roads, with the only exception of the most important motorways.

There should be an interstate-like system made up of the most important motorways, all of them called A-X or A-XX, financed through a vignette system. The rest of the network, including national, regional, county and local, plus short motorway "spurs" should all be managed by only one administration (be it the region or the province).

It's stupid to have three different administrations managing roads! Three different sets of snowplow fleets, three different maintenance teams, etc.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:36 PM   #3827
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It could, but if you look at the map you will notice that almost every N-XXX or its equivalent A-XX are managed by the State and they take a full network.
Furthermore I would say that if some of them weren't managed by the state, nothing special would happen. I do not consider some of them as "general state network" (official name).

Region administrations manages the "second level network" (and the third level). Sometimes it is a nightmare where it finish every level... I would set to them all roads, incluiding those small ones.

Finally, town halls of every municipality (doesn't matter if a little one or a huge one) manages their streets and lanes. These lanes can be paved or non paved but let's not consider them as roads (sometimes a lane to approach somewhere but never a road to link two towns or so).


If you see the full A-XX and N-XXX network you will see that it is enough big to move to somewhere and you will requiere only to use second level roads to approach final destination.

I think that considering almost all long distance movements, the motorways, roads, congestion, etc... there are just a few ones where you may use the second level network.
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Old September 5th, 2013, 01:59 PM   #3828
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I don't get your point.

I'm not talking about importance, networks or whatever. I'll say it again: It's stupid to have three different administrations managing roads.

Look at the Basque country: Every province manages ALL of the roads within its limits (with the only exception of the AP-68). From the very important A-1 or AP-8 to any local road leading into a small village.

The fact is that Fomento has different "branches" (demarcaciones and unidades) which are unique to every province and, after all, are the ones who really manage the roads. Also, many regional governments have their own "offices" again in every province. And finally we have the provinces.

So, if all of the three administrations are "divided" into a province level, what is stopping us from merging them into only one? Isn't it stupid that a snowplow owned by Fomento is not allowed to clean a local road while the other snowplows are too busy?
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Old September 5th, 2013, 05:20 PM   #3829
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And this is why I think that it should be the provinces (or the autonomous regions in some cases) the only administration to manage all kinds of roads, with the only exception of the most important motorways.
Honestly I think that's fine to have the central administration managing the main roads of a country. Normally the resources are bigger and there's a clearer perspective of a network.

But if that's not possible I can't get the point in which the change of the owner of the road has influence in the roads denomination. What happened in France is a very good example: the whole national network was declassified to the department administrations. The result was a complete disaster, main roads were re-named as Dxxx like the secondary roads, most of the times with their names varying from one department to another. Not only the notion of "main road" was lost, the itinerary itself is now very hard to follow. Here in Portugal they're doing the same but in a smaller scale.

This doesn't make any sense. Even if in a technical/official approach this roads are now under regional or local administration, if one road is a main road by its traffic and significance this road should be named as a main road and not as secondary one. For us, as drivers and passengers, it's not important to know who is maintaining the road, but what kind of road it is.

The Spanish case is a good case of taking what is good and making it increasingly worse. The only necessary change that should have been made to the 70's model was the inclusion of the name "A-" for the motorways. First, the distinction between autovías and autopistas no longer makes sense as their profile is (with a few exceptions) very similar. Then, the Madrid radials and the regional autovías (autonomicas) are just a way to complicate even more with any need. Both are autovías/autopistas. Why must Madrid radials have a special status? C-32, C-33 and C-58 for example can be considered radials of Barcelona, CV-35 and V-21 radials of Valencia, etc, etc... As for the autovías autonomicas, what's the difference for example between CM-42 and A-1? Well, you may say the owner, but even that is not true, as the A-1 in the Basque Country is maintained by the autonomic government. Both are autovías, and CM-42 is a better one even is it's autonomic...
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Old September 5th, 2013, 09:08 PM   #3830
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Honestly I think that's fine to have the central administration managing the main roads of a country. Normally the resources are bigger and there's a clearer perspective of a network.
That's why I said "with the only exception of the most important motorways"

Many national roads now have a parallel motorway that -if not tolled- takes most of the traffic. There's no point on keeping a N-120 between Burgos and León which has become more like a local road since the opening of the A-231. The same with the N-630/A-66, N-620/A-62, etc. The Navarre's government renamed the old N-111 into NA-1110 after the A-12 Pamplona-Logroño opened.

The current national road network dates back to the 40's, and its last change was made in the late 80's if I'm not wrong. It makes no sense anymore. It should be regarded as a complement to the motorway network for long-distance trips, not as a network on its own. This means that some roads that are currently "orange" (regional, 1st category) should be elevated to the category of national roads (e.g. the EX-100 Cáceres-Badajoz), while some current national roads should be downgraded (only in its name) to regional roads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rpc08 View Post
But if that's not possible I can't get the point in which the change of the owner of the road has influence in the roads denomination. What happened in France is a very good example: the whole national network was declassified to the department administrations. The result was a complete disaster, main roads were re-named as Dxxx like the secondary roads, most of the times with their names varying from one department to another. Not only the notion of "main road" was lost, the itinerary itself is now very hard to follow. Here in Portugal they're doing the same but in a smaller scale.

This doesn't make any sense. Even if in a technical/official approach this roads are now under regional or local administration, if one road is a main road by its traffic and significance this road should be named as a main road and not as secondary one. For us, as drivers and passengers, it's not important to know who is maintaining the road, but what kind of road it is.
I totally agree with you here. That's why I mentioned the Basque case: Despite of managing all of their roads, they still keep the "N", "A" and "AP" prefixes which don't "break" the network of the whole of Spain.

Changing the manager of the road does not necessarily imply changing its name. There should be an agreement between all the provinces/regions to modify the current "national road" network and use the same names for the same corridors.

But I think it's good to have less road authorities, because it means less administrative personnel and therefore more money for road mainteinance. Let's have a look:
-Ministerio de Fomento has 47 "unidades" or "demarcaciones", one per province (except the islands, Ceuta and Melilla).
-Now, if every regional government has a delegate in every province (not counting regions which consist of only 1 province, nor the Basque Country): 4 in Galicia, 9 in C&L, 3 in Aragón, 4 in Catalonia, 3 in Valencia, 8 in Andalusia, 2 in Extremadura, 5 in C-LM, 2 in the Canary Islands. That's 39 if I'm not mistaken.
-Add 52 for each department of Roads in every province, Ceuta and Melilla.

That's 138 "chiefs" for 52 territories. Why couldn't there be only 52, or even less?


Quote:
Originally Posted by rpc08 View Post
The Spanish case is a good case of taking what is good and making it increasingly worse. The only necessary change that should have been made to the 70's model was the inclusion of the name "A-" for the motorways. First, the distinction between autovías and autopistas no longer makes sense as their profile is (with a few exceptions) very similar. Then, the Madrid radials and the regional autovías (autonomicas) are just a way to complicate even more with any need. Both are autovías/autopistas. Why must Madrid radials have a special status? C-32, C-33 and C-58 for example can be considered radials of Barcelona, CV-35 and V-21 radials of Valencia, etc, etc... As for the autovías autonomicas, what's the difference for example between CM-42 and A-1? Well, you may say the owner, but even that is not true, as the A-1 in the Basque Country is maintained by the autonomic government. Both are autovías, and CM-42 is a better one even is it's autonomic...
I totally agree with you here again
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Old September 6th, 2013, 12:04 AM   #3831
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A-231
I'll never understand why the Leon-Burgos motorway is A-231. There is a road in Eastern Aragon numbered A-231 too, but I know the logic behind that designation, so I consider that motorway the Spanish I-238. What moron assigned a already existing number to the motorway? Anyway, I think A-12 would work better, but the road is managed by the regional government, not Fomento.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 02:24 AM   #3832
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Taking their own numbering system, the name would have been A-120, but maybe as there was not a CL-120 but a N-120, they chose number 231 (odd, as there neither exist a CL-231 I think).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iregua View Post
This means that some roads that are currently "orange" (regional, 1st category) should be elevated to the category of national roads (e.g. the EX-100 Cáceres-Badajoz), while some current national roads should be downgraded (only in its name) to regional roads.
That road was indeed N-523, but in the 1983 regionalization of roads, was given to Junta de Extremadura, as Zafra branch of N-435 (now EX-101) was too. All regionalized roads were given EX-xxx numbers in 1997.

Other examples are:

In Catalonia, Eix Transversal N-141 (C-25), N-230 South (C-12), N-150 (still with that name), most of N-152 (C-17). In regard to Autopistas A-16, A-17, A-18 and A-19, some already were regional and some regionalized in this time.
In Madrid and C&L, original N-601 between Madrid-Segovia-Valladolid (M-601/CL-601+A-601), while N-403 Toledo-Valladolid became N-601 between N-VI and Valladolid.
In Andalusia there were lots of transfers, like N-321 Úbeda-Málaga (with examples as A-316 and A-7000), N-324 Córdoba-Jaén-Almería (A-306, A-324, A-401, A-308, A-92), N-333 Madrid-Cádiz by-passing Seville (A-364 and A-394), N-334 Sevilla-Antequera (A-92), or N-342 Jerez-Antequera-Granada-Murcia (A-382, A-384, A-92, A-92G, A-92, A-92N/ A-91 in non-transferred stretch).

In addition, new national roads were created, as N-310, N-502, N-260 or N-344, bases for A-43, A-74 (now discarded), A-26 and A-33+AL-12 respectively.

Last edited by albertocsc; September 6th, 2013 at 03:59 AM.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 02:55 AM   #3833
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The Spanish could easily switch to a 2 tier network for Management, National and State. The state can then contract municipalities to deal with state roads in their own areas.

The complex bit that nobody from outside ( or inside Spain ) understands this A AP and C(state) name system as many of the state ciudads are as good as or better than A roads. The states could keep ownership of high quality Cxx roads but let the National road system designated the High Quality Cxx as A something or other in the National network.

And change N roads to state roads. Every important N road now has an A alongside it and is no longer Nationally important in Spain.

Bad as things are in Spain it has a fantastic motorway network and has not overbuilt the network as badly as Portugal where quite a few high quality motorways only carry 4-6k AADT a day. These also exist in Spain but not to the same extent, there won't be any more now that the Cajas are all gone as the Cajas were captured by construction companies. Nationally Spain only really needs to finish the A7 and A8 to have a full network.

But you need a 2 tier system not a 1 tier system as that would not work in Spain with the powerful state governments, just let the states set standards for municipalities and decide on municipal/ state priorities on non national roads.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 03:15 AM   #3834
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Reading the previous posts I think that it's getting confused...

A can state for Autovías or Autopistas (or Andalucian roads).

For example, A-42 is an Autovía and A-40 is an Autopista (both toll-free).

AP state for Autopistas de Peaje (Toll motorways).

N states for Nacional (conventional road).

Those 3 are used for national or inter-regional scope roads.

For regional scope roads, the autonomic or provincial even local (depending also on the scope of the road) prefix is used.

The owner of the infraestructure doesn't have anything to do here, for example the A-1 is partially owned by the Basque government as it has been said before, M-30 is owned by the city hall of Madrid, M-45 is owned by the region of Madrid and M-40 is owned by the central government.

In motorways, you can usually (but it's often only noticeable when the road has a regional scope) see who owns it by the symbol of the road, for example, the M-30 is sometimes preceded by the coat of the city... M-45 has an orange background while the motorways owned by the central government or belonging to the national/inter-regional network have a blue background.

But there are usually some signals in the road indicating who is the owner:

Owned by the central government:


Owned by the government of Extremadura:


Anyway, nevertheless who owns the motorway, sometimes the maintenance of the central government's road is made by the autonomies and sometimes the central government do the maintenance of a regional owned road.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 04:08 AM   #3835
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Quote:
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A can state for Autovías or Autopistas (or Andalucian roads).
It also stand for Álava/Araba roads, Aragón roads, Alicante urban motorways (A-70, A-77, A-78 and former A-79) and Castile&León regional motorways.

And until two years ago, even some Murcia and Albacete provincial roads (they still exist in Murcia, but preceded by RM-, and in Albacete now there are only AB-xxx/AB-xxxx provincial roads).

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
The Spanish could easily switch to a 2 tier network for Management, National and State. The state can then contract municipalities to deal with state roads in their own areas.

The complex bit that nobody from outside ( or inside Spain ) understands this A AP and C(state) name system as many of the state ciudads are as good as or better than A roads. The states could keep ownership of high quality Cxx roads but let the National road system designated the High Quality Cxx as A something or other in the National network.
We already have a 3-tier network (National, State, Province), as graphics show.
River basins or forests authorithies can also own roads, but they normally are of a very local influence.

I think our 3-tier works well, it just needs coordination between all road authorities (Ministry, Regional Goverments, Province councils and maybe even island councils) so they can produce a more understandable numbering, and avoid coincidences like those of A-231 (C&L and Aragón) or N-622 (C&L and Basque Country).

Last edited by albertocsc; September 6th, 2013 at 04:22 AM.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 02:50 PM   #3836
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A-7, Granada province

It looks like A-7 along the coast of Granada province will be completed by 2015.

Minster of Fomento, Ana Pastor, announced several segments will open in 2014 and 2015;

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_.../130905-02.htm

It's a bit of a shame that they were able to construct so many motorways in rural areas, while it takes long to mop up the remaining missing links of the core network, such as A-7, A-8 & A-66.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 03:09 PM   #3837
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertocsc View Post
I think our 3-tier works well, it just needs coordination between all road authorities (Ministry, Regional Goverments, Province councils and maybe even island councils) so they can produce a more understandable numbering, and avoid coincidences like those of A-231 (C&L and Aragón) or N-622 (C&L and Basque Country).
Road Numbering in Spain does not respond to criteria of practicality or easily understood, only political marketing criteria.

The only thing that Autonomias had done with roads is to change the road number. "Branding" en otras palabras.

I said a lot of times in the spanish forum, all we need is a road classification to Motorway, Major Highways, Minor Highways and Country / Local Roads. Not a classification in function of the owner of the road, that's stupid…
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Old September 6th, 2013, 03:58 PM   #3838
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Indeed. One of the very few female forumers proposed classifying the roads according to maintenance status:
A: Motorway-like (Autopista)
B: Good road (Buena)
C: Path of goats (Camino de cabras)
D: Oh my God! (¡Dios mío!)
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Old September 6th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #3839
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My favorite classification systems would be one where the road type (be it a letter, or a color, or a shield) clearly identifies its basic features (access control, tolls, grade separation). That is the most relevant information for the driver, not the political jurisdiction over the road.
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Old September 6th, 2013, 05:03 PM   #3840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It looks like A-7 along the coast of Granada province will be completed by 2015.

Minster of Fomento, Ana Pastor, announced several segments will open in 2014 and 2015;
You have all reason Chris, congratulations, I didn't know that you understand spanish.

I think that it is a very good news, this motorway has a long history of construction.
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