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Old September 6th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #3841
Penn's Woods
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Yes, but does he understand Basque?
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Old September 6th, 2013, 07:49 PM   #3842
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The problem in A7 could be that there was another option via Granada so long distance journeys were assured by motorway.

Apart of them... (both A8 and A7) could it be possible that the A22 is the largest and not finished motorway?
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Old September 7th, 2013, 12:25 AM   #3843
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Indeed. One of the very few female forumers proposed classifying the roads according to maintenance status:
A: Motorway-like (Autopista)
B: Good road (Buena)
C: Path of goats (Camino de cabras)
D: Oh my God! (¡Dios mío!)
It was me... but with a different nick.
Letters reflect who's in power or something like that, a not very practical criterion when you're driving. I don't want to thank their graces, their highness for having built a road... I just want to go from A to B.
Numbers (at least in national roads) are a mixture of this:
- 1st cipher (sector): is it important to know that I'm driving between N-I and N-II? Will I drive more confidently thinking that I'm not lost?
- 2nd cipher (hundreds of kilometres from Madrid): If I'm not driving from/to Madrid... why should I care?
- 3rd cipher (radial or not): more or less the same.
You have to travel somewhere and you don't know how to get there. What's important for you? Choosing the fastest, the shortest, the most efficient road. If you know in advance that pavement is so awful that your car is going to break you can look for an alternative road. If you don't know it the letter will only serve to know who to shit on. And numbers... numbers are so subreal that I don't have words to describe how useless they are. Not in English and not even in Spanish.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 12:48 AM   #3844
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Catalonia made more than 10 years ago a nice map for their second level network, indeed.

All those roads with only two digits. C-XX.

Catalonia has a map like a triangle, which makes easier to make any numeration



When they started, general rule:

C-1X all south-north roads (and km. 0 always in the south)
C-2X all west-east roads (and km. 0 always in the west)
C-3X all roads in diagonal, paralel to the coast (doesn't matter if country inside. If it is paralel, C-3X)
C-4X, C-5X and C-6X all perpendicular roads to the coast and km 0 in the coast

For instance C-12 (it is a south-north road) will be wester than C-18
And C-28 will be norther than C-25...

It is easier to know the direction because there is a general rule about directions, location, etc... and these roads aren't so longer as national roads (they can take 200 km for instance but some of them are quite smaller).

And they are lucky because a map like a triangle helps to make this road plan.


From my side, it is a quite interesting idea.


I have only two things I do not like. Motorways and tolled motorways are not pointed. They will keep C-32 but in blue, and if tolled, a signal of toll only, nothing in the name.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 12:18 PM   #3845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Catalonia has a map like a triangle, which makes easier to make any numeration
Numeration there is not easier due to Catalonia's shape but because they wanted to make it easier. Consequently, if Aragon is a mess is because our politicians are a mess.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #3846
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I made a video of CV-13, a grade-separated single-carriageway road that connects the (unused) Castellón airport with main roads in the coast. The airport has had no flights since its opening, but as CV-13 connects CV-10 motorway with N-340 and AP-7 it has created a toll-free corridor from Valencia to Torreblanca, which saves almost 20€ of tolls when driving from Barcelona to Valencia.



Notice the mandatory low beams and the signs warning of the speed difference between cars and trucks. These are to be found in many other Spanish roads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It looks like A-7 along the coast of Granada province will be completed by 2015.

Minster of Fomento, Ana Pastor, announced several segments will open in 2014 and 2015;

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_.../130905-02.htm

It's a bit of a shame that they were able to construct so many motorways in rural areas, while it takes long to mop up the remaining missing links of the core network, such as A-7, A-8 & A-66.
Cost is the issue with A-7 and A-8. The remaining of A-66 was simply unnecessary. It's not part of the main network; there's no traffic going from Sevilla to Oviedo.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #3847
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Nice car sound
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Old September 7th, 2013, 05:58 PM   #3848
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In fact, only the main regional network in Catalonia has that easy numbering system.

For their county and local roads they have just not made a new system at the moment, so they just keep their old numbers (N-150, C-xxx/xxxx, B-xxx, T-xxx, GI-xxx, L-xxx).
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Old September 7th, 2013, 06:05 PM   #3849
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In my region system is this one (apart of national roads)

First regional level, A-XXX in orange
(this is the A-222 refurbished)
https://maps.google.es/?ll=41.292254...&cbp=12,0,,0,0

Second regional level, A-1XXX in green
(this is the A-1232 refurbished)
https://maps.google.es/?ll=42.076082...355.38,,0,0.58

Third level as A-2XXX in yellow.
They are quite small roads.


But... there are about 35 first level (A-XXX) so no need to have three digits. In fact they use the classic old system. This is, A-1XX if it starts in the north of A-2 and A-2XX in south.

They could make a simple A-XX with only two digits. What it could be difficult is to have a system like in Catalonia (vertical, diagonal, etc.. with a specific digit) because the map is not a triangle.

But they should think.

Furthermore, in the case of A-1XXX and A-2XXX, the second digit points the area but... I do not remember them, and supossing that a person that takes care in these details doesn't remember (like me), I would say that almost nobody knows it.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 06:33 PM   #3850
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Digits in our roads were directly inherited from "Plan Peña" (1940), so the second digit doesn't really say anything.
A clear example is C-125, which was divided in A-1205 (Jaca / La Peña), A-125 (Ayerbe / Navarra) and NA-125 in Navarra. They used their imagination.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #3851
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Reading all this, it occurs to me I don't think I've ever seen a (published, paper) map of Spain that color-codes the roads. They just show the prefixes and numbers. Which (I think) works anywhere else in Europe outside the British Isles.* By which I mean that in France, say, As and Ns are always red, Ds are yellow, so if your map doesn't use different colors for its route markings you're not missing anything....

*Where you need to distinguish between green As - primary routes - and other As. (Ns in Ireland.)
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Old September 7th, 2013, 08:23 PM   #3852
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But the political jurisdiction over the road isn't stated in the road letter/number... just the scope of the road is.

The only problem is that sometimes is hard to know the features of a regional scope road as both autovías and conventional roads have the regional prefix, but often autovías are the ones wich 2 numbers (like M-50 or CM-42) the regional roads have 3 numbers (like M-506) and local roads have 4 (like TO-4515).

Extremadura chose to have a regional numbering plan with the A letter before the number to state that it's a motorway (EX-A1).
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Old September 7th, 2013, 08:47 PM   #3853
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We need a state-wide classification of motorways with only one prefix. We could use three-digit numbers, it's no big thing. We already use them. Current system is nonsense. Prefixes should reflect road standard, not the owner of the road. We could do with 3 or 4 prefixes, like in Britain.
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Old September 7th, 2013, 09:32 PM   #3854
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For a regional road, it doesn't matter the number, name, etc... but for motorways and other long distance roads.

I will set two examples

N-240 Tarragona-San Sebastián
if you go by motorway (current, on built and projected) would be A-27, AP-2, LL-11, A-2, A-22, A-23, A-21, A-15, AP-15, A-15 and A-1

Yes... the whole journey between Tarragona and San Sebastián that in the classic road it is just N-240 (partially shared with N-330)


By the way, N-330 is Alicante-Somport pass

If you arrive from France... first sign will be "N-330, km. 666".
What the hell!, km 666. to whereeeee?. Just to Alicante.
But nobody will go to Alicante following that road

They would take the A-23 to Sagunto and later A-7 or AP-7

Why do we have does "ghost roads" (roads where nobody drive corner to corner)???
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Old September 7th, 2013, 09:45 PM   #3855
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well if we compare... almost nobody takes the A-3 from Madrid to Valencia...
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Old September 8th, 2013, 08:33 AM   #3856
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It's true, sometimes the equivalent for a road is a big lot of highways or viceversa. I think it complicates the journey, because we tend to think that 1 road = 1 highway (and with a similar name, if possible) is the norm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
If you arrive from France... first sign will be "N-330, km. 666".
Little stop and parenthesis to talk a bit in Spanish (it wouldn't be the same, you know that sometimes the true substance is lost in translation):
Tío, a ti esa señal te mola, ¿eeh?
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Old September 8th, 2013, 11:21 AM   #3857
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BTF?

There are roads nonsense. And one clear example is the N-330.

Nobody would take it to go from Alicante to Teruel through that road. It will be faster to go via A7 or AP-7 and later A-23.
Yeah, after Teruel it is the faster way to approach Somport pass but between Alicante and Teruel it has nonsense

Thus, we have some kilometre numbers that give no information. You enter in Spain and they say that there are 666 km to Alicante following a road that nobody uses for that journey. I know by heart that in the northern side of Zaragoza it was the km. 501 so it helps me to have an idea.

The problem is there are several roads like this one and furthermore, there are a lot of "small" motorways, so in a few years, all two digit motorways will be full and they will need, either starting with a three digit or (let's hope) thinking in a whole new numeration
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Old September 8th, 2013, 11:43 AM   #3858
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As all of this was inherited from "Plan Peña", it reflects the status quo when in Spain there weren't highways yet. It was OK then (or not, who knows), but now it's completely obsolete. Yet the "666" near Canfranc is funny due to its location.
If all those signs haven't been changed yet and we're here talking about them... it's because the ones responsible for them aren't as interested as us in roads, in logic or in practicality.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 03:05 PM   #3859
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penn's Woods View Post
Reading all this, it occurs to me I don't think I've ever seen a (published, paper) map of Spain that color-codes the roads. They just show the prefixes and numbers. Which (I think) works anywhere else in Europe outside the British Isles.* By which I mean that in France, say, As and Ns are always red, Ds are yellow, so if your map doesn't use different colors for its route markings you're not missing anything....

*Where you need to distinguish between green As - primary routes - and other As. (Ns in Ireland.)
The official road map of Spain (published by Fomento) uses the different colours for the roads --except for motorways--, apart from the prefixes. This is an example I've found:



The paper version looks cleaner, as there are fewer "icons".

The funny thing is that some provinces don't use only the yellow colour for province roads. For instance, Álava/Araba (Basque country) uses A-3XXX and A-4XXX (previously they used blue instead of grey) apart from the typical A-1XX and A-2XXX which, regarding colour-coding, are similar to the rest of Spain.


I've even seen some sky-blue in Zamora, or purple in Soria


Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
[...]
Current system is nonsense. Prefixes should reflect road standard, not the owner of the road. We could do with 3 or 4 prefixes, like in Britain.
Probably, but better than road "standard" I'd say "importance". For instance, on the one hand you have a 8 m wide, 1 km long straight road that links a town with a national road, on the other hand you have a 6 m wide, 30 km long winding road that connects several towns along a valley. Shouldn't the latter have a higher category than the first?

I think that there shoud be "A-" (for motorways), "N-" for national roads, "C-" for the currently "orange" roads and the most important "green" ones, "XX-NNN" for the rest (where XX is a province/region code). No more B-P-1234, ZA-L-4321, SO-V-9876. A thousand roads for every province is more than enough.

I would keep the province codes to avoid extremely high numbers, or having different roads with the same name, as happens in France with the D roads.
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Old September 8th, 2013, 06:10 PM   #3860
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Nice!

I may just add that to my collection....
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