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Old September 16th, 2013, 09:24 AM   #3901
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Why did they build the AP7 and RM1 and RM3 so.? They are full standard Autovias but they don't go anywhere with people and traffic. The RM1 only goes to an airport that Murcia want to close because the Province built a new airport. Murcia paid for the RM1 and RM3 and for the new Airport ....themselves.
RM-1 and RM-2 are product of "Motorway is nice, Vía Rápida is Lucifer"".

That's the result when the Zapatero Administration simply forced to spend money.

Just see the stupid proyects in mid 00's: Huesca / Ciudad Real / Castellon airport, Madrid Olympic Facilities, AVE in Castilla la Mancha, Ciudad de Las Artes y las Ciencias, Ciudad de la Luz, majority of motorways in meseta that are not radials (from madrid to the coast) and a large list of projects… are just porn for politics.

Spain has always been very austere, and when it stopped being has been our ruin.

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Some idiot in a dead Caja probably paid for the AP7
Idiot? Toll Motorways companies is probably the safest inversion that you can make here: if you got bankrupt the government will help you with more money.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 12:29 PM   #3902
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2.1 km of motorway (Gi-632) were opened for the Zumarraga bypass in 2012. This motorway is basic to Gipuzkoa (Basque Country), because it articulates the middle of the province and provides connection between two basic motorways: A-1 in Beasain with Ap-1 in Bergara. This motorways is constructed from Beasain to Urretxu and in 2015 will finish the connection to Bergara. The fact is from Beasain to Urretxu is toll free and from Urretxu from Bergara will be tolled. Gipuzkoa is one of the most industrialised provinces of Spain and the motorway is necessary.





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Old September 16th, 2013, 01:49 PM   #3903
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Originally Posted by Peines View Post
Just see the stupid proyects in mid 00's:... AVE in Castilla la Mancha...
I wonder how would you trace the lines from Madrid to Barcelona, Valencia, Alicante/Murcia, Seville/Málaga without passing through Castilla - La Mancha.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 01:52 PM   #3904
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IMO those motorways around Murcia are in fact more important than some other motorways built there in the last years by the Regional government. AADT figures for Murcia metro area:




As Peines said, many of those RM-X motorways, as well as many other motorways in Spain, should have been built with 1+1 expressway standards with a few 2+2 or 2+1 grade-separated stretches where needed.

The problem is that the 1+1 expressway is not the 50% of the price of the 2+2 motorway, but about the 60-75%. However, the motorway gives at least twice the votes, so politicians chose to build motorways instead of expressways.

This is not the only disaster though: Building new HSLs for passengers while dismantling some closed lines that could be opened again in UIC gauge for freight transport, therefore reducing the Spanish dependency on fossil fuels; building or enlarging airports that would be dead if the airlines were not subsidised to fly there...


It is true that Spain as a whole is already "overbuilt" when it comes to motorways. I guess that the ratio of kilometres per inhabitants (or whatever it's measured) is probably the highest in Europe. However, having said this, we shouldn't just simply oppose to any new motorway construction in Spain, because if it's true that some unnecessary motorways should have never been built, it's also true that some really necessary motorways are still waiting to be built --and these ones in Murcia are an example.

Last edited by Iregua; September 16th, 2013 at 02:06 PM.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 03:06 PM   #3905
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The problem is that the 1+1 expressway is not the 50% of the price of the 2+2 motorway, but about the 60-75%.
Yes, you don't save half the money if you build only two instead of four lanes. That is a common misconception. Considering the very low cost of motorway construction in Spain, it's justifiable for most project to build a full motorway instead of a much less safe super two for slightly less money. Spain typically spends less on a kilometer of motorway than many other countries do on two-lane roads, especially the low usage autovías on the Meseta, which typically cost only € 3 million per kilometer.

You're not only have to consider the capacity vs usage to judge whether a system is overbuilt, but also the cost of alternatives, traffic safety, economic development, rural isolation, etcetera.

On the other hand, Spain should have prioritized the missing links of national autovías, such as A-7, A-8 and A-66. These should've been finished years ago.

Also, Spain is one of the most decentralized countries in Europe, with a large geographic spread of population. This typically leads to a high amount of motorways per capita, similar to e.g. the United States, Netherlands, Germany and Turkey. This is in contrast with countries like Sweden, United Kingdom and Italy where a few corridors can serve a large proportion of the population.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 04:48 PM   #3906
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A395 - Acesso A44


A44 - saída Otura


A44 - saída La Malahá




A44 - puerto Suspiro del Moro


A44 - saída Padul


A44 - saída Cónchar


A44 - saída Dúrcal






A44 - saída Lecrin


A44 - Viaducto Rio Torrente




A44 - saída Lanjarón


Estrada para a Barragem de Béznar
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Old September 16th, 2013, 05:16 PM   #3907
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A44 - saída Izbor


A44 - Viaducto de Izbor


A44 - Viaducto Embalse de Rules




A44 - saída Órgiva


A44 - saída Vélez de Benaudalla




A44 - saída A7 Salobreña




A7


A7 - saída GR14 Motril


GR14




N340




N340 - La Velilla




N340 - Almuñecar








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Old September 16th, 2013, 09:14 PM   #3908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iregua View Post
IMO those motorways around Murcia are in fact more important than some other motorways built there in the last years by the Regional government. AADT figures for Murcia metro area:



It is true that Spain as a whole is already "overbuilt" when it comes to motorways. I guess that the ratio of kilometres per inhabitants (or whatever it's measured) is probably the highest in Europe. However, having said this, we shouldn't just simply oppose to any new motorway construction in Spain, because if it's true that some unnecessary motorways should have never been built, it's also true that some really necessary motorways are still waiting to be built --and these ones in Murcia are an example.
I am quite surprised with these traffic levels. AADT of 100 000 or close for a city of this rather medium size. This not only justifies those new autovias in the area but it also puts in adifferent perspective claims that Spain is overbuilt, at least in places. So far I have been under impression that Spanish network is rather finished and requires only cosmetic finishes and enhancements.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #3909
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A major factor here is that building a new autovía is cheaper than widen an existing one. They would have to rebuild a huge amount of overpasses and bridges to widen A-30 to 2x4 lanes, not to mention a boatload of residential / commercial relocation.

The Murcia region is also heavily urbanized, the rural areas around the city aren't really rural, it's a mix of numerous buildings and houses, small towns and suburbs and agriculture. But there are also numerous unfinished subdivisions around Murcia.
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Old September 16th, 2013, 09:32 PM   #3910
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A-30, Murcia

Existing A-30 through Murcia. Nearly all of the autovía has no shoulders and any widening would require a total reconstruction of the facility, not just some wider pavement. Space is also lacking to turn the autovía into a full-standard facility, with 2x4 lanes, auxiliary lanes between exits and shoulders.





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Old September 16th, 2013, 10:43 PM   #3911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peines View Post
RM-1 and RM-2 are product of "Motorway is nice, Vía Rápida is Lucifer"".

That's the result when the Zapatero Administration simply forced to spend money.

Just see the stupid proyects in mid 00's: Huesca / Ciudad Real / Castellon airport, Madrid Olympic Facilities, AVE in Castilla la Mancha, Ciudad de Las Artes y las Ciencias, Ciudad de la Luz, majority of motorways in meseta that are not radials (from madrid to the coast) and a large list of projects… are just porn for politics.

Spain has always been very austere, and when it stopped being has been our ruin.



Idiot? Toll Motorways companies is probably the safest inversion that you can make here: if you got bankrupt the government will help you with more money.


In the case of Huesca airport, not so expensive at all (a little airport was existing then) but either not necessary. Even for arriving to mountain, another current little airport would be more interesting.

Furthermore... the stretch of A-22 between Huesca and that airport hasn't been started on works yet.
...
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Old September 17th, 2013, 01:44 AM   #3912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bartek76 View Post
I am quite surprised with these traffic levels. AADT of 100 000 or close for a city of this rather medium size. This not only justifies those new autovias in the area but it also puts in adifferent perspective claims that Spain is overbuilt, at least in places. So far I have been under impression that Spanish network is rather finished and requires only cosmetic finishes and enhancements.
The AADT figures indicate something has to be done in Murcia. I was commenting more on the fact that Murcia built a lot of wrong (RM-1 2 and 3) infrastructure ....and an obligatory Ghost Airport too. The orginal Murcia map a few days ago showed an AP-37 'under construction. northeast of Murcia. I am afraid to say that I laughed out loud when I saw that one. The AP-37 is not only non existent but would be a complete waste of money. and is unfundable since the collapse of the Cajas who funded a lot of the insanity post 2000. Cajas even funded the M50 (around Dublin that is) and were funding PPP projects all over Europe.

Spain does need some city bypasses and also needs alternatives to congested 1970s and 1980s era roads ( especially up north) as they are not upgradeable to modern standards as well as widening them. Early Spanish motorways often have crap alignments and are really not that safe at 120kph. They should be reduced to 100kph speeds after an alternative is built in some cases. The A-7 in south Murcia, around and south of Lorca is a crap 120kph motorway, I often drove it.

Where an upgrade by new motorway is required it should be to 130kph standards for future proofing given the size of the country .....electric cars may be rather fast when they become the norm. Speed restrictions below normal motorway speeds should be entirely on safety grounds and a function of safety of exits/entrances and alignment.

Chris is also entirely correct in saying that the Spanish Motorway NETWORK will be complete when the missing bits of A-7 A-8 and A-66 are completed. Hot spots of congestion aside it is very very impressive national network.

But some of the Motorways built by the Provinces make me laugh and they always will...as will the AP-7 wandering through the desert at the Vera end.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 11:03 AM   #3913
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This is a map with motorway network in Gipuzkoa (Basque Country). See that Diputación planning. They call to motorway network Gipuzkoa "Rondabout", because it is a network of motorways connected between them.

This network it was expected to finnish in 2010, but it will finish in 2015 when the last motorway between Urretxu and Bergara will open (Gi-632). This network is one of the densest in Spain excluding Madrid and Barcelona.



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Old September 17th, 2013, 12:42 PM   #3914
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You can't evaluate the merits of a project without considering its costs! At a meager € 7 million/km, or other low figures for European standards, many road projects that wouldn't be feasible in Spain, Italy or Germany are feasible in Spain because for whatever reason it is usually so cheap to build infrastructure there!
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Old September 17th, 2013, 01:28 PM   #3915
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The future cost will be much higher than that.

Many of the arguably missing roads are in mountains up north or along the South coast /Sierra Nevada. They are near populated urban areas like Murcia. Viaducts and Tunnels and cut and covers will be required. National parks are in the way.

There is no point building any more Motorways up on the Meseta where it is cheap to build Motorways. No population and the network is generally overbuilt with national provincial and even county level motorways where a 1+1 would be adequate.

Past performance means nothing!!!! Portugal bankrupted itself by building too many motorways, they finally ran out of cash as they were building the third motorway from Lisbon (pop 3m) to Porto. (pop 1.5m) .

Last edited by sponge_bob; September 17th, 2013 at 01:34 PM.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 02:33 PM   #3916
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Past performance means nothing!!!! Portugal bankrupted itself by building too many motorways, they finally ran out of cash as they were building the third motorway from Lisbon (pop 3m) to Porto. (pop 1.5m) .
Most people overestimate the cost of constructing motorways on the overall national budget significantly. Highway construction cost is a very minimal share of the overall government budget. You can't really bankrupt a developed country by building too many motorways, unless you're talking about Africa where the government spends close to none on social security and health care.

Most countries spend as much on social security in 10 - 15 days as they do on roads in a whole year. Motorways are only a footnote on the annual budget, even in Portugal or Spain. The Spanish network has been criticized as "overbuilt" while they have been spending more money on rail than on roads for the past 10 years.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #3917
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Chris... do you think that it would be better to prepare new projects (when budget available) for new motorways even if no current enough traffic but they let a journey corner-to-corner or so (this is, they could get traffic from other curren motorways) or, instead, increasing lanes in current ones (and making orbital motorways and that stuff...)????
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Old September 17th, 2013, 08:10 PM   #3918
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Originally Posted by javimix19 View Post
This is a map with motorway network in Gipuzkoa (Basque Country). See that Diputación planning. They call to motorway network Gipuzkoa "Rondabout", because it is a network of motorways connected between them.

This network it was expected to finnish in 2010, but it will finish in 2015 when the last motorway between Urretxu and Bergara will open (Gi-632). This network is one of the densest in Spain excluding Madrid and Barcelona.



CAPV?
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Old September 17th, 2013, 09:03 PM   #3919
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Portugal bankrupted itself by building too many motorways, they finally ran out of cash as they were building the third motorway from Lisbon (pop 3m) to Porto. (pop 1.5m) .
Correction, please. This is also a quite common way of thinking here in Portugal, particularly by those that, with some reason, always warned for the decay of the railway system in Portugal. But Portugal ran out of cash due to multiple reasons and only one of that was the heavy construction of motorways. And even if there are some hundreds of kilometers of motorway in Portugal that were constructed with any reason (I would say 10-15% of the network, notably built in the most recent years), with official documents showing predictable traffic amounts bellow 10000 vehicles/day, many of the other were justified at the time they were constructed, but with the introduction of new taxes in some motorways and the rise of all tolls without exception most of the network remained almost empty. With money disappearing every day from the pocket of the Portuguese, it is not difficult to understand why traffic on motorways (and in many other roads) has declined so much.
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Old September 17th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #3920
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CAPV?
I think "Communidad Autonoma del Pais Vasco"
Sorry, I have forgotten where to put accents in spanish.
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