daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Highways & Autobahns

Highways & Autobahns All about automobility



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old October 20th, 2013, 03:53 PM   #4001
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,956
Likes (Received): 2208

That plan makes perfect sense, the A7 A8 and A66 are the only motorways Spain needs to complete in order to have a full national network. The A15 is a redundancy measure ( an alternative route to an existing motorway)

Spain will finish the A7 A8 and A66 by 2015 I would think and could declare the primary Motorway network complete at this point, that is some achievement given the size of Spain and the complexity of some of the projects.
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old October 20th, 2013, 04:04 PM   #4002
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
That plan makes perfect sense, the A7 A8 and A66 are the only motorways Spain needs to complete in order to have a full national network. The A15 is a redundancy measure ( an alternative route to an existing motorway)

Spain will finish the A7 A8 and A66 by 2015 I would think and could declare the primary Motorway network complete at this point, that is some achievement given the size of Spain and the complexity of some of the projects.
Most of the A-15 referred on those documents is not an alternative to the existing AP-15 in Navarre, but the extension of this motorway directly to the A-2 in Soria. This way, motorway link from Madrid to Pamplona will be possible avoiding existing routes through Zaragoza and Burgos.

Furthermore, this motorway is not as secondary as Soria is the only provincial capital without connection to the motorway network. The city itself has motorways, but by now they are isolated from the rest of the network. So, at least, A-15 from Medinaceli (A-2) to Soria is necessary to link the city. to the rest of the network.
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 05:46 PM   #4003
Iregua
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 143
Likes (Received): 70

There are 3 alternatives for Pamplona-Madrid:

1) The "traditional" one, via Tafalla-Soria-Medinaceli: 408 km, 4h12'. Using both motorways and national roads.

2) The shortest one, via Tafalla-Gómara-Medinaceli: 393 km, 4h8'. Taking the CL-101, which is as good as a national road.

3) Via Vitoria-Gasteiz and Burgos: 450 km, 4h15'. Using motorways exclusively.


I'd take #2, but a lot of people take #3 because for some reason they prefer to use motorways only.


Something similar happens for Logroño-Madrid: The traditional route (via Soria) is 331 km long (3h39'), but the road (N-111) is quite curvy and dangerous in winter, therefore many people prefer to take the AP-68 up to Haro, then the N-232 to Pancorbo, and finally the AP-1/A-1 to Madrid via Burgos. It's 40 km longer but 6 minutes faster, according to Google Maps.
Iregua no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 05:50 PM   #4004
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iregua View Post
There are 3 alternatives for Pamplona-Madrid:

1) The "traditional" one, via Tafalla-Soria-Medinaceli: 408 km, 4h12'. Using both motorways and national roads.

2) The shortest one, via Tafalla-Gómara-Medinaceli: 393 km, 4h8'. Taking the CL-101, which is as good as a national road.

3) Via Vitoria-Gasteiz and Burgos: 450 km, 4h15'. Using motorways exclusively.


I'd take #2, but a lot of people take #3 because for some reason they prefer to use motorways only.


Something similar happens for Logroño-Madrid: The traditional route (via Soria) is 331 km long (3h39'), but the road (N-111) is quite curvy and dangerous in winter, therefore many people prefer to take the AP-68 up to Haro, then the N-232 to Pancorbo, and finally the AP-1/A-1 to Madrid via Burgos. It's 40 km longer but 6 minutes faster, according to Google Maps.
Actually during the pre-crisis time, there were plans for transforming the CL-101 in an expressway for by-passing the A-15 longest way through Soria.
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 06:45 PM   #4005
Iregua
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 143
Likes (Received): 70

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
That plan makes perfect sense, the A7 A8 and A66 are the only motorways Spain needs to complete in order to have a full national network. The A15 is a redundancy measure ( an alternative route to an existing motorway)

Spain will finish the A7 A8 and A66 by 2015 I would think and could declare the primary Motorway network complete at this point, that is some achievement given the size of Spain and the complexity of some of the projects.
2015 is the key. The Spanish general elections will be held in november 2015, so predictably a lot of new motorways will be opened in the previous months.

Here is my bet for the stretches currently u/c which will be finished before the general elections:
-A-7 in Andalusia
-A-8 in Asturias and Galicia (Solares-Torrelavega in Cantabria will have to wait).
-A-66 Zamora-Benavente.
-A-15 Medinaceli-Soria.
-A-12 Viana-Santo Domingo.
-New bridge in Cádiz.


The budget also shows some important investiments for some particular stretches of the A-2, A-14, A-23, A-32, A-33, A-44 and A-54.
__________________

sponge_bob, arnau_Vic liked this post
Iregua no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 09:18 PM   #4006
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21255

What is the status of those low-performing concessions with tons of debt and few traffic? Will the gov't bail them out?

I'm thinking specifically of AP-7 in Murcia.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 09:26 PM   #4007
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

Are there still plans to construct A-11 west of Zamora? I know it's not a high-volume road, but with the completion of Portuguese A4 to the Spanish border it's a missing link in the international road network. It appears that substantial segments of the existing N-122 could be used to construct the autovía.
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 09:39 PM   #4008
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,956
Likes (Received): 2208

Far as i can see there are 2 eu 'core' routes Spain 《》 Portugal. Both built.

Plus another 3 motorways between them...2 to Galicia and 1 to the Algarve. I doubt another is needed.Let Portugal finish the A4 tunnel first...at least.
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 10:14 PM   #4009
ChrisZwolle
Road user
 
ChrisZwolle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Zwolle
Posts: 43,631
Likes (Received): 19426

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Let Portugal finish the A4 tunnel first...at least.
Even if Spain would begin construction immediately, the tunnel will still be finished before the A-11 could theoretically be completed.

A "first this, then this" attitude is often seen in discussions, but makes no sense. If Europe would have followed this approach since the 1950s then half of our motorways would not have been constructed yet.
__________________

my clinched highways / travel mapping • highway photography @ Flickr and Youtube

pai nosso liked this post
ChrisZwolle no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 10:44 PM   #4010
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
What is the status of those low-performing concessions with tons of debt and few traffic? Will the gov't bail them out?

I'm thinking specifically of AP-7 in Murcia.
The government is still thinking about what to do. Legally, it is the ultimate responsible for the default of those motorways.

This way, the government is going to recuperate the already disappeared National Company of Motorways (Empresa Nacional de Autopistas, ENA) to manage them. Now, the question is that the private companies want to have a higher shared participation on that company, but the government don't want to. It is mostly a question of how the shared new company is created, but nobody doubts that they gonna be nationalized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Are there still plans to construct A-11 west of Zamora? I know it's not a high-volume road, but with the completion of Portuguese A4 to the Spanish border it's a missing link in the international road network. It appears that substantial segments of the existing N-122 could be used to construct the autovía.
Planned, but not a priority right now. As you say, it is not a main priority and the traffic is very low between Zamora and Bragança. Most of the traffic to Northern Portugal is routed through the A-52, A-75 and A24 or A-52, AP-9/A-55 and A3.

The N-122 is a really comfortable and easy road, much better than the former Portuguese IP4, so apparently there is no reason for upgrading it to expressway standards. Even for trucks it would be easy to take that road, as it is much more direct way to Porto from the Spanish A-62. Maybe, with the new upgraded Portuguese road it would be more attractive for being used by more traffic. And this "induced traffic" could make more logical to build a expressway in the Spanish side. However, a by-pass for Alcañices already under motorway or expressway standards could be interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Far as i can see there are 2 eu 'core' routes Spain 《》 Portugal. Both built.

Plus another 3 motorways between them...2 to Galicia and 1 to the Algarve. I doubt another is needed.Let Portugal finish the A4 tunnel first...at least.
Right now between Spain and Portugal you have from North to South:

A3 Valença do Minho <--> AP-9+A-55 Tui
A24 Chaves <--> A-75 Verín
A25 Vilar Formoso <--> A-62 Fuentes de Oñoro
A6 Elvas <--> A-5 Badajoz
A22 Castro Marim <--> A-49 Ayamonte

Planned, you had:
A4 Braçança <--> A-11 Trabazos
Termas de Monfortinho (A23) <--> EX-A1 Moraleja
Marvao (A23) <--> A-58 Valencia de Alcántara
Vila Verde de Ficalho <--> A-47 Rosal de la Frontera

With the existing five links, along 1292 km of international border, you get an average of a motorway every 258 km.
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 11:17 PM   #4011
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,956
Likes (Received): 2208

Yeah but Portugal has well overbuilt its motorway network and some sections only carry 2-3k AADT so lets see how much A4 traffic actually makes it _past_ Braganza post tunnel completion first shall we???

Spain has 3x the UK HQ network by length and 4x the UK HQ network per person and with a total road network of over 2x the UK per capita including all road types. Like the UK it is mainly free. The UK is richer than Spain....for now.

For Spain, maintaining their network (especially the extensive provincial motorway class network) in good order is the main priority for the period after they complete the A7 A8 and A66. Honestly. Furthermore Spain ( unlike the UK ) is currently building a pretty large High Speed train network too. Those things are expensive to maintain as well.

Spain has remarkable infrastructure overall and astonishing infrastructure compared to 30 years ago. The closest thing to China we have seen in Europe. Probably the worlds biggest Metro (km per capita) in Madrid too.

But Spain needs to be very careful about keeping it _all_ working for the next 5-10 years. If Spain were to invest in any infrastructure class over the next 10 years it should be broadband. If they _actually_ do so it will have a profound effect on traffic too.

For Spain it is time to stop building new motorways , high speed train lines and airports ( did I mention airports ??? ) The potential returns on investment are very low compared to what these infrastructure investments will deliver in EG Eastern Europe.

And by misallocation of resources I would never want to let anyone take away what Spain has built, the most remarkable infrastructure build in Europe in the past 30 years.

Be Safe!
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 11:26 PM   #4012
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Just as comparison:

Border Spain-Portugal 1292 km, 5 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 258 km.
Border Spain-France 656 km, 2 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 328 km.

Border France-Italy 515 km, 1 crossing motorway + 2 alpine tunnels linked to the motorway network: one main crossing road every 172 km
Border France-Switzerland 573 km, 2 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 287 km
Border France-Germany 451 km, 2 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 225 km
Border France-Luxemburg 73 km, 1 crossing motorway: 1 motorway every 73 km
Border France-Belgium 620 km, 4 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 155 km

Overall for borders France-Italy/Switzerland/Germany/Luxemburg/Belgium 2232 km, 12 crossing motorways/alpine tunnels: one main road every 186 km

Border Belgium-Germany 167 km, 2 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 84 km
Border Belgium-the Netherlands 451 km, 5 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 90 km

Overall for Belgian borders 1386 km, 12 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 116 km

Border the Netherlands-Germany 577 km, 9 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 64 km

Overall for Dutch borders 1028 km, 14 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 73 km

Border Italy-Switzerland 740 km, 1 crossing motorway: 1 motorway every 740 km
Border Italy-Austria 430 km, 2 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 215 km.
Border Italy-Slovenia 232 km, 3 crossing motorways/expressways: 1 main road every 77 km

Overall for Italian borders 1917 km, 9 crossing motorways/alpine tunnels/expressways: 1 main road every 213 km

I will continue... at some point... haha
__________________

arnau_Vic liked this post
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 11:36 PM   #4013
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Yeah but Portugal has well overbuilt its motorway network and some sections only carry 2-3k AADT so lets see how much A4 traffic actually makes it _past_ Braganza post tunnel completion first shall we???

Spain has 3x the UK HQ network by length and 4x the UK HQ network per person and with a total road network of over 2x the UK per capita including all road types. Like the UK it is mainly free. The UK is richer than Spain....for now.

For Spain, maintaining their network (especially the extensive provincial motorway class network) in good order is the main priority for the period after they complete the A7 A8 and A66. Honestly. Furthermore Spain ( unlike the UK ) is currently building a pretty large High Speed train network too. Those things are expensive to maintain as well.

Spain has remarkable infrastructure overall and astonishing infrastructure compared to 30 years ago. The closest thing to China we have seen in Europe. Probably the worlds biggest Metro (km per capita) in Madrid too.

But Spain needs to be very careful about keeping it _all_ working for the next 5-10 years. If Spain were to invest in any infrastructure class over the next 10 years it should be broadband. If they _actually_ do so it will have a profound effect on traffic too.

For Spain it is time to stop building new motorways , high speed train lines and airports ( did I mention airports ??? ) The potential returns on investment are very low compared to what these infrastructure investments will deliver in EG Eastern Europe.

And by misallocation of resources I would never want to let anyone take away what Spain has built, the most remarkable infrastructure build in Europe in the past 30 years.

Be Safe!
I agree with you: completing the main motorways network and just maintaining the huge amount of infrastructure we have.

High speed thing (and railway in general) is slightly different. For taking the most of the network still tons of different investments on tracks and stations need to be done, as well as optimizing links to ports and dry ports for moving a higher proportion of cargo on rails, not only for Portugal and Spain inland, but as well as alternative to the main harbours around the Antwerpen, Rotterdam and Hamburg area.

Airports are just oversized in most of cases, but by now it is OK... it is not the worse and most expensive thing to maintain. However most of the domestic traffic will disappear as the new high speed links are completed.

On other hand, for example, Madrid has a relatively oversized transport network mostly concerning subway and tolled motorways. However, on the other hand, still transport problems exist in some part of the metropolitan area and for some particular types of mobility. In Madrid the overall transport network is not well optimized.
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 20th, 2013, 11:53 PM   #4014
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,844

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Just as comparison:

Border France-Italy 515 km, 1 crossing motorway + 2 alpine tunnels linked to the motorway network: one main crossing road every 172 km

If only the French RN-134 would be upgraded... thus you could talk about three Spanish-French main crossing.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2013, 12:03 AM   #4015
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
If only the French RN-134 would be upgraded... thus you could talk about three Spanish-French main crossing.
But you know that even people from the Aspe valley don't want more road traffic. They support the railway, but not any kind of road upgrading.
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2013, 12:06 AM   #4016
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,844

Plans are just for a 2+1 to my knowledge.

It would be enough.

I really do not understand about building a so huge infrastructure and later having a bottle neck.

By the way, I will always support that re-opening railway and could be quite interesting for freight.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2013, 12:07 AM   #4017
Reivajar
__________
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Posts: 12,081
Likes (Received): 3340

Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Plans are just for a 2+1 to my knowledge.

It would be enough.

I really do not understand about building a so huge infrastructure and later having a bottle neck.

By the way, I will always support that re-opening railway and could be quite interesting for freight.
Yes, it would be enough, in alpines tunnels it is not that different.

For freight trains through Canfranc tunnel I find really hard difficulties with some ramps on the French side.
Reivajar no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2013, 12:24 AM   #4018
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,956
Likes (Received): 2208

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Just as comparison:
Border France-Italy 515 km, 1 crossing motorway + 2 alpine tunnels linked to the motorway network: one main crossing road every 172 km
Border France-Switzerland 573 km, 2 crossing motorways: 1 motorway every 287 km

I will continue... at some point... haha
Aw come on, the Mont Blanc Tunnel is S2 with a 60kph speed limit and charges around €15 each way. The alternative is a fairly crappy motorway way down south near Ventimiglia. Frejus tunnel is expensive too.

The Spanish crossings are full motorway and largely free with free alternative routes once you reach Spain as well as an AP option once you get there if paying is your thing.

The Spanish - French Pyrenee crossings are vastly superior to the France - Italy crossings adjusted for population and speeds.

Obviously you may want a base tunnel under Andorra with an express truck lift to Andorra in the middle but you don't NEED it do you????

Population adjusted the Spanish road network is vastly superior to Italy anyway as is Portugals.

Please accept that the Iberian peninsula has superior infrastructure and that maintaining it and improving in incrementally is the future .....many countries will never catch up with you and I mean rich ones not Angola or Gabon here.
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2013, 12:28 AM   #4019
alserrod
Bienvenue à Saragosse
 
alserrod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Zaragoza
Posts: 59,844

No need, of course.

The traffic (and freight) plans are, indeed, considering those two current motorways plus HSL but also several in the middle of mountains, more focus for regional traffic but could release some trucks in the motorways (and avoid extra km).

Futhermore... the statistics says "one pass every..." but doesn't say that both of them are in each corner of the Pyrenees so you find a completely isolated area.

There are some roads and motorways improved in the area... and it could be upgraded, at least, to focus in the nearby.
__________________
Ya ves que fuimos puente herido de abrazos detenidos por ver la libertad


(José A. Labordeta 1935 - 2010)
alserrod no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old October 21st, 2013, 12:34 AM   #4020
sponge_bob
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 3,956
Likes (Received): 2208

Yeah but the population/commercial concentrations are each end of the Pyrenees near the Catalan Coast and the Basque coast and not in the middle, same as the Motorway and High Speed Railway projects. If Barcelona was north of Zaragoza in a Pyrenean valley obviously it would be different and a 100km base tunnel to Toulouse _would_ be required.
sponge_bob no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
autopista, carreteras, españa, highways, motorways, road, spain, spain in the world, via rapida

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:51 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium