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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:42 AM   #4021
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Aw come on, the Mont Blanc Tunnel is S2 with a 60kph speed limit and charges around €15 each way. The alternative is a fairly crappy motorway way down south near Ventimiglia.

The Spanish crossings are full motorway and largely free with free alternative routes once you reach Spain as well as an AP option once you get there if paying is your thing.

The Spanish - French Pyrenee crossings are vastly superior to the France - Italy crossings adjusted for population and speeds.

Obviously you may want a base tunnel under Andorra with an express truck lift to Andorra in the middle but you don't NEED it do you????
I know... the links between Italy and France are old and much trickier than the ones between Spain and France. For sure, the Alps are huge and harder than the Pyrenees. If motorways "across" the Pyrenees are better it is just because they avoid them by going along the coast, where the mountains are much softer than the Alps are along the Mediterranean coast.

Anyway, the alpine tunnels and the "crappy" A8/A6 motorway along the coast are far better than doing all the way through Lugano, specially if you are heading Southern and Western France, or having fun over some of the alpine passes ( , yes I enjoy them even in foggy nights). If not, the Swiss way if probably far better.

Those roads as well are better, or at least, provide higher capacity than any pass across the Pyrenees out of the motorways thought the Basque Country and Catalonia. So, yes, maybe they are worse than the Spanish-French motorways, but far better than any other international crossing in the Pyrenees, even better than the new Canfranc road tunnel.



No, I don't want a base tunnel, maybe just improving the roads of the Somport/Canfranc pass for optimizing the tunnel and providing some alternative to the existing motorways; not necessary but desirable...



BTW, I think human being will discover teletransportation before building a base tunnel under the Pyrenees.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:48 AM   #4022
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Accept the reality. Spain has built what Germany has built (relative to population and tax base to pay for it) and in about half the time. You don't want to go Japanese investing in high quality infrastructure to nowhere with no traffic just to 'stimulate' the economy , honestly. Infrastructure cannot be put on a ship and exported.

That plan might work in Angola where there is no infrastructure and where almost any infrastructure will generate a good return on investment to the economy but not in Spain it won't. Much easier to announce the plan is finished and now you have the best transport infrastructure in Europe. Nobody can argue with that, certainly not the French with Paris in gridlock or the UK who cannot build any motorway anywhere any more.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:49 AM   #4023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Yeah but the population/commercial concentrations are each end of the Pyrenees near the Catalan Coast and the Basque coast and not in the middle, same as the Motorway and High Speed Railway projects. If Barcelona was north of Zaragoza in a Pyrenean valley obviously it would be different and a 100km base tunnel to Toulouse _would_ be required.
But anyway coming out of Catalonia or Basque country could choose any border if they could
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:51 AM   #4024
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About tunnels, I remember one person who had to travel from Barcelona to northern Italy by car several times per year.

He said me he preferred to go via one of the tolled tunnels. Time and global price was very similar. Yeah, they have another speed limit restriction but no congestion compared with the coast motorway.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 12:56 AM   #4025
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Aw come on, the Mont Blanc Tunnel is S2 with a 60kph speed limit and charges around €15 each way. The alternative is a fairly crappy motorway way down south near Ventimiglia. Frejus tunnel is expensive too.

You wish!

The one-way fares on both Frejus and Mont Blanc tunnels are € 40,90 for a passenger car!
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:12 AM   #4026
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You wish!

The one-way fares on both Frejus and Mont Blanc tunnels are € 40,90 for a passenger car!
I sort of remembered them as €30 return.

BUT, being French and Italian single lane slow roads they MUST be superior to free Spanish motorways, right!!!!!
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:23 AM   #4027
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I remember the last time I made a Slovenia-Lyon... far better through one of the alpine tunnels. Cheaper than the coastal motorway. Actually the coastal motorway is saturated, and in France you need to reach Northern Marseille for having a connection to the rest of the French network...
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Old October 21st, 2013, 01:59 AM   #4028
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Not like Spain so.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 04:15 AM   #4029
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Not, actually the conditions are completely different, the geography is much more cruel () in the Alps, but the international connection between France and Italy are not that bad either.

An interesting question would be how long are the private concessions in the alpine tunnels, and if they are that expensive to be maintained even if in 30 years they will be already paid.

Last edited by Reivajar; October 21st, 2013 at 05:08 AM.
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Old October 21st, 2013, 11:15 AM   #4030
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At minimum €40 a car and €100+ a truck they pull in revenue of €100m a year+ each.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 04:19 PM   #4031
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M-30, during rush hour this morning. Northbound lanes are the collapsed ones:

[IMG]http://i42.************/2sal7qp.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i43.************/mt8lmp.jpg[/IMG]

Photo taken from this footbridge:
http://goo.gl/maps/iP5gc
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Old October 25th, 2013, 04:25 PM   #4032
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carretero View Post
M-30, during rush hour this morning. Northbound lanes are the collapsed ones:

[IMG]http://i42.************/2sal7qp.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i43.************/mt8lmp.jpg[/IMG]

Photo taken from this footbridge:
http://goo.gl/maps/iP5gc
Eight lanes are not enough.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 06:31 PM   #4033
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Hi Carretero, welcome back!,

Is this situation quite often?
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Old October 25th, 2013, 07:58 PM   #4034
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miliar View Post
These are the road works included in Spanish Government Budget for next year:

DGC

SEITTSA

The objectives are explained in the following documents:

Construction of new roads (program 453B)

Road conservation (program 453C)

Regards.

I've had a closer look at this and this is what I got:

828,670,000 € for road construction (program 453B) from Fomento-DGC.
291,596,000 € for road construction from SEITTSA.
-------------------------------------------------
=1,120,266,000 € for road construction

+818,200,000 € for road maintenance (program 453C) from Fomento-DGC.


Then I searched for the regional budgets for 2014, yet I was only able to find 3 of them:

Castilla-La Mancha (page 25, http://www.castillalamancha.es/sites...nversiones.pdf )

Road construction: 16,918,020 €

Road maintenance: 33,147,710 €

Total: 50,065,730 €


Castilla y León (page 191, http://www.jcyl.es/web/jcyl/binarios...obnocache=true )

Road construction: 75,650,966 €

Road maintenance: 31,064,624 €

Total: 106,715,590 €


La Rioja (page 1, http://www.larioja.org/upload/docume...f?idtab=812470)

Road construction: 6,463,680 €

Road maintenance: 10,124,000 €

Total: 16,587,680 €


That makes a per capita budget of:

Castilla-La Mancha: € 24
Castilla y León: € 42
La Rioja: € 51

Take into account that Castilla-La Mancha and Castilla y León have several provinces with their own governments (diputaciones), which manage provincial (yellow) roads. Maybe it's better to compare the € per km of Regional network:

Castilla-La Mancha (Regional network): 8,698 km, € 5,756 per km.

Castilla y León: 11,311 km, € 9,434 per km.

La Rioja: 1,439 km, € 11,527 per km.


There's quite a difference anyway.
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Old October 25th, 2013, 08:24 PM   #4035
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
Hi Carretero, welcome back!,

Is this situation quite often?
Given that these photos have been taken at 9:45am, it is a unusual situation, because of the rainy day it has been today.

The Google Maps simulation gives a good view of the typical situation in this area at rush hour (8:00am) and it shows very dense northbound traffic, with occasional stops, but not as bad as in the photos (Google Maps today was "black" all around Madrid):
https://www.google.es/maps?ll=40.431...me=460800&z=13

But this traffic level is most similar to the worst moment of the week, Fridays around 3pm (in southbound direction):
https://www.google.es/maps?ll=40.452...me=486000&z=13
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Last edited by Carretero; October 25th, 2013 at 08:29 PM.
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Old October 26th, 2013, 01:12 PM   #4036
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According to Fomento, Spain had in 2012 14,701 km of "autopistas" and "autovías" (+1,634 km of dual carriageways):

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajch View Post
Ya esta disponible el anuario de fomento de 2012
http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_...nuario2012.htm

el capitulo 7 son las carreteras

la red ahora (2012) son:

16335 km en total de vias de gran capacidad (+153 km respecto a 2011)
-3025 km de autopistas de peaje (+3)
-11676 Km de autovias y autopistas libres (+167)
-1634 km de carreteras de doble calzada (-17)

Quitando las carreteras de doble calzada para poder comparar internacionalmente nos queda una red de 14701 km

The total road network is 165,595 km long (not including streets or paved paths owned by municipalities).

There are 149,260 km of single-carriageway roads:

Below 5 m wide: 25,116 km
Between 5 and 6.99 m: 60,113 km
7 m or wider: 64,030 km



Regional distribution:


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Old October 26th, 2013, 02:00 PM   #4037
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Average public investment in thousands of € per 1,000 inhabitants (first group of columns) / per km (second group of columns). [Note that tolled motorways aren't mantained via public money]

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Old October 27th, 2013, 10:45 PM   #4038
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Average public investment in thousands of € per 1,000 inhabitants (first group of columns) / per km (second group of columns). [Note that tolled motorways aren't mantained via public money]

I'm surprised that Madrid got a really low investment per inhabitant, but at the same time the investment per kilometer is really high. Kind of similar in Catalonia. It is because they have built few but really expensive roads?
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Old October 28th, 2013, 02:54 PM   #4039
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
I'm surprised that Madrid got a really low investment per inhabitant, but at the same time the investment per kilometer is really high. Kind of similar in Catalonia. It is because they have built few but really expensive roads?

'Investment' means both construction and maintenance.

It's all about population density. Madrid or Catalonia are very densely populated areas for Spanish standards. The length of a network is related to the area (at least within Spain). Let's take some extreme examples:

Madrid: Population 6,498,560; total road length: 3,344 km.
Soria: Population 95,223; total road length: 3,301 km.

So, 1 km of road in Madrid can be 'supported' by 1,493 people, while in Soria it's only 29 people.
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Old October 28th, 2013, 03:37 PM   #4040
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Quote:
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So, 1 km of road in Madrid can be 'supported' by 1,493 people, while in Soria it's only 29 people.
Exactly, furthermore Soria does not have a Metro (yet) so roads are vital as there is no alternative mode of transportation.
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