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Old November 17th, 2013, 03:43 AM   #4081
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
Which inner ringroad? The Ronda del Mig?
It is not totally "destroyed". Between Gran Via (Plaça Cerdà) and Via Augusta it actually works as an urban motorway, almost entirely underground. However, between Via Augusta and Hospital de Sant Pau they decided not to replace the old urban motorway layout with new tunnels, but rather to convert it in a normal avenue, with less lanes for cars, a bus lane, wider sidewalks, more trees, etc. In order to do so they torn down a viaduct and now they have closed an underpass. I think east of Via Augusta there are now only a couple or three small tunnels, including the Plaça Lesseps underpass.
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Old November 17th, 2013, 06:47 PM   #4082
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There's also a bigger tunnel a little bit further east. Plus, if you follow the street all lights are in synch, so you can get on the green wave in Hospital de La Pau and surf it all the way to Avinguda Meridiana.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 06:12 PM   #4083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
However, between Via Augusta and Hospital de Sant Pau they decided not to replace the old urban motorway layout with new tunnels, but rather to convert it in a normal avenue, with less lanes for cars, a bus lane, wider sidewalks, more trees, etc. In order to do so they torn down a viaduct and now they have closed an underpass. I think east of Via Augusta there are now only a couple or three small tunnels, including the Plaça Lesseps underpass.
Well this is the crappy green-commie part.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 08:52 PM   #4084
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Just for the record, the greens have never ruled in Barcelona. In fact, the municipal government responsible for the last downgrading of the former inner ringroad is right-wing liberal. Rondes were built under the rule of a left-wing party.

In Spain, the greens have never had a strong political influence and the governments, be it right-wing, left-wing or even communist, have strongly backed large infrastructure projects. Voters of all parties not wanting to live close to an urban motorway are the ones responsible for downgrading them.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:04 PM   #4085
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NIMBYs, how surprising.

The greens have never ruled the Netherlands either. They currently hold 2.7% of parliament seats.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:05 PM   #4086
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However, that's true that between the 1980's and the late 1990's the approaching to roads integration in Spain has been "greener". It is not exactly a political thing, but as well an urban design trend.

For instance, the design of the M-30 in Madrid. The Western and Eastern stretches built mostly during the 1970's had a really different urban integration than the northern stretch (avenida de la Ilustración), which was designed like a broad urban avenue with tons of trees and parks, traffic lights and a 50 km/h speed limit.

In the same way, B-10 and B-20, built in the late 1980's and early 1990's, (which are kind of equivalent to the Madrid M-30) has a much finer urban integration, with tunnels and parks around, and at the same time they keep sort of freeway standard. That's true that they have a really limited capacity to manage more traffic and the design is kind of underestimated, but they belong to another different approach to roads infrastructures inside cities.

The same situation for Ronda del Mig: more urban avenues and less elevated or "hard" freeways inside the city.

The 1970's were quite purely infrastructures-oriented. During the 1980's and 1990's the trend in urban design was mostly looking for a better urban integration although it could mean infrastructures with lower capacity, specially considering the strong growth during the following decade.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #4087
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Just for the record, the greens have never ruled in Barcelona. In fact, the municipal government responsible for the last downgrading of the former inner ringroad is right-wing liberal. Rondes were built under the rule of a left-wing party. In Spain, the greens have never had a strong political influence and the governments, be it right-wing, left-wing or even communist, have strongly backed large infrastructure projects. Voters of all parties not wanting to live close to an urban motorway are the ones responsible for downgrading them.
Just a little off-topic: the greens were part of the local government of Barcelona at least between 1999 and 2011, although in coalition with other parties. The same happened in the regional government of Catalonia between 2003 and 2010. So, even if the mayor or the regional prime minister were not from the green party, their ideas were present in the policies of those governments, for good or for bad. For instance, the decision to limit to 80 km/h the maximum speed in all motorways in the Barcelona area was without a doubt a decision of that party. The right-wing liberal party decided to go back to the old 120 km/h speed limit when they won the 2010 elections.
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Old November 20th, 2013, 09:57 PM   #4088
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An example of the downgraded inner beltway of Barcelona:





Here the links of Google Street View:

http://goo.gl/maps/STB0O

http://goo.gl/maps/K5YXF
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Old November 20th, 2013, 10:09 PM   #4089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
However, that's true that between the 1980's and the late 1990's the approaching to roads integration in Spain has been "greener". It is not exactly a political thing, but as well an urban design trend.

For instance, the design of the M-30 in Madrid. The Western and Eastern stretches built mostly during the 1970's had a really different urban integration than the northern stretch (avenida de la Ilustración), which was designed like a broad urban avenue with tons of trees and parks, traffic lights and a 50 km/h speed limit.

In the same way, B-10 and B-20, built in the late 1980's and early 1990's, (which are kind of equivalent to the Madrid M-30) has a much finer urban integration, with tunnels and parks around, and at the same time they keep sort of freeway standard. That's true that they have a really limited capacity to manage more traffic and the design is kind of underestimated, but they belong to another different approach to roads infrastructures inside cities.

The same situation for Ronda del Mig: more urban avenues and less elevated or "hard" freeways inside the city.

The 1970's were quite purely infrastructures-oriented. During the 1980's and 1990's the trend in urban design was mostly looking for a better urban integration although it could mean infrastructures with lower capacity, specially considering the strong growth during the following decade.
This is true and it has also happened in all other European countries. You just have to look at urban motorways built in the 60s and 70s in France, for instance. However, NIMBYsm and ecological concerns have been taken less into consideration in Spain. Ronda de Dalt and Ronda Litoral would have been impossible to build in other countries in the 80s, even with all that urban integration (which is not that much in Ronda de Dalt, which resembles a lot Paris' Boulevard Périphérique).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
Just a little off-topic: the greens were part of the local government of Barcelona at least between 1999 and 2011, although in coalition with other parties. The same happened in the regional government of Catalonia between 2003 and 2010. So, even if the mayor or the regional prime minister were not from the green party, their ideas were present in the policies of those governments, for good or for bad. For instance, the decision to limit to 80 km/h the maximum speed in all motorways in the Barcelona area was without a doubt a decision of that party. The right-wing liberal party decided to go back to the old 120 km/h speed limit when they won the 2010 elections.
This is true. However, they didn't take very important decisions in infrastructure planning. The 80 km/h thing was a political stunt. Many big road infrastructure projects were planned when the greens where in coalition with the ruling party in Catalan regional government, such as the twinning of C-25, and other ones that were not stopped, such as Túnel de Bracons through ecologically sensitive areas.

In terms of infrastructure and urban planning, there's not a big difference between right- and left-wing parties in Spain. Their guidelines are basically the same and only differ when elections are near and voters need new ideas (or bringing back old ones).
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Old November 21st, 2013, 08:45 PM   #4090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vignole View Post
An example of the downgraded inner beltway of Barcelona:





Here the links of Google Street View:

http://goo.gl/maps/STB0O

http://goo.gl/maps/K5YXF

How freaking lame that looks. Besides, I don't see how that bridge affects anything. It could be just painted, if the grey felt so horribly ugly. The first pic shows how a big city should look like.

I ment that there are strong green wings inside parties in Barcelona.

Spanish PSOE is much right-winger than for example Finnish "right-wing" party. BUT Catalonia is an exception being historically a very leftist area, and green ideology is in rise in the European left.

Last edited by RV; November 21st, 2013 at 08:50 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 08:52 PM   #4091
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In this particular case I disagree, the current situation looks much better.
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Old November 21st, 2013, 09:07 PM   #4092
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The point would be if keeping the bridge or building a new tunnel was that necessary, or traffic can be managed relatively well with the new layout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
This is true and it has also happened in all other European countries. You just have to look at urban motorways built in the 60s and 70s in France, for instance. However, NIMBYsm and ecological concerns have been taken less into consideration in Spain. Ronda de Dalt and Ronda Litoral would have been impossible to build in other countries in the 80s, even with all that urban integration (which is not that much in Ronda de Dalt, which resembles a lot Paris' Boulevard Périphérique).
Well, I find Ronda Dalt much better integrated than the Paris BP, as well because of the topography in the upper area of Barcelona which makes relatively easy to "hide" the infrastruture under some slopes of the uphilling city. However the BP in Paris have a relatively poor integration within the city, and only in the area of Bois de Boulogne is relatively similar to the result in Barcelona. Anyway, Barcelona Rondas are much more modern.
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Old November 23rd, 2013, 12:23 AM   #4093
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A video of the first kilometers of AP-7 and the border crossing with France. This short stretch is 2x2; there are plans to widen the French side to 2x3 lanes.

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Old November 28th, 2013, 05:40 PM   #4094
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http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0J53NO20131128

Spain to rescue empty toll roads in deal avoiding deficit hit

* Government in talks over 4 bln eur rescue of bankrupt motorways

* State debt to increase, hopes to avoid impact on deficit

* Builders to take hit, banks to refinance loans
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Old November 28th, 2013, 05:41 PM   #4095
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The new website of the Spanish traffic management authority allows you to watch several cameras all over the country (except the Basque Country and Catalonia, which have their own traffic autorities). Previously, only Madrid was available.

Pick any province, then choose a road: http://www.dgt.es/es/el-trafico/camaras-de-trafico/
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Old November 28th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #4096
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...0J53NO20131128

Spain to rescue empty toll roads in deal avoiding deficit hit

* Government in talks over 4 bln eur rescue of bankrupt motorways

* State debt to increase, hopes to avoid impact on deficit

* Builders to take hit, banks to refinance loans
Why not just let owners go bankrupt? It seems to me that the state already has enough debt to worry about.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 09:34 PM   #4097
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Is there some site with all the ongoing/planned road projects in Spain?

Last edited by RV; December 2nd, 2013 at 09:05 PM.
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Old November 28th, 2013, 09:42 PM   #4098
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Why not just let owners go bankrupt? It seems to me that the state already has enough debt to worry about.
The problem is that even if the owners (big construction companies linked to banks) go bankrupt, the ultimately subsidiary responsible for paying is the State, so the government needs to put money.

Yes, it is a problem about the way the concession agreement was signed, making the State the ultimate responsible facing any default.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
Is there some site with all the ongoing/planned road projects in Spain?
In the Spanish Wikipedia most of the autovias and autopistas have their own article with relatively updated information about the different stretches.
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:A...de_Espa%C3%B1a

As well here you have a blog managed from a Spanish forumer.
http://www.geotren.es/autovias.html
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Old November 29th, 2013, 08:28 PM   #4099
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11.5 new km of the A-15 from Sauquillo del Campo to Almazán (Sur) have been opened today.



Magenta, a new colour for the Spanish rainbow of road numbers! It's also funny how the road number is longer than the town's name.

Sources:

http://sorianoticias.com/noticia/adi...azan-sauquillo

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_.../131129-07.htm
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Old November 29th, 2013, 08:40 PM   #4100
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Catalan regional government has proposed widening C-16 between Berga and Bagà with a moving barrier which could change the configuration of the road depending on the day. C-16 is a road that depends highly on tidal traffic, as it is one of the few main road connections between Barcelona and Andorra and ski resorts in the Pyrenees. They say that the whole operation of moving the (21-kilometer) could be done in 2 hours and with no interruption of traffic flow. There will also be a physical widening, but it will only add one lane (though I am wondering what will they do with the narrow tunnels).

There was a proposal to build a motorway there, but it has been deemed too expensive (€700 million). At around 100 million, this one looks better value for money, considering that traffic is only too high (20.000 vehicles per day) certain Fridays and Sundays. Some weekends the road has been ocasionally widened to 2+1 lanes by placing cones on the roadway and moving one of the lanes into the shoulder.

Click to official press release (in Catalan).



Map

Link to project (PDF).
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