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Old January 9th, 2014, 11:06 AM   #4221
g.spinoza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alserrod View Post
First of all, improving motorways. In the 1990s there were no motorways at all and first of them built were quite bad. They were called "first generation motorways" and recently refurbished.

Building new motorways and improving other roads made too much.

But in 2006 the point driving licence made a lot of effort too!. It is known that average speed on motorways decreased 7 km/h in a couple of months after that point system.

Obviously, safer cars helps to decrease fatalities cases.
But better motorways and better cars can hardly change the "culture", as RV said. Maybe the point system can, it was introduced in Italy too and it somewhat helped, but here the driving culture was and still is terrible.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 12:14 PM   #4222
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point licence made too much but not all and I still see crazy drivers.

Maybe more images on TV. On holidays season TV news offer a deal of crazy drivers spotted from police helicopters (and fined). Just enough to take the top10 to avoid a lot of people to repeat it...
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Old January 9th, 2014, 12:29 PM   #4223
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We can make all those different systems/rules, but at the and is "our" way of thinking towards speeding, alcohol, drogs, etc. must be changed.
Otherwise, all the efforts will only be limited!
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Old January 9th, 2014, 01:17 PM   #4224
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Regarding about alcohol, law got quite more strict about 10 years ago or so. Since then, several things have happened in the Spanish society.
First of all, there is no regulation about alcohol on road side areas (to my best knowledgement, in France, it is only served with main courses on meals) but there were several tendencies to consum less wine at first and later less wine and higher price and quality (same cost). Therefore, restaurants started to offer more "small bottles". People knew they couldn't drink more than two wine glasses if they had to drive so no need to open a complete bottle. The concept of taking your bottle away the restaurant, which was quite common in several countries, didn't exist in Spain at all and... it started to exist.
Furthermore, it was quite usual for restaurants to offer "wine glasses" instead of bottles. Maybe you were driving and wanted ONLY ONE glass, no more. They had two or three wine marks to offer you. Bottles already opened and offered just for a glass at meal. Quite cheaper than opening a bottle and no problems with alcohol.


It is only one detail, there are several more but something has been changing year to year in Spanish society.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 02:34 PM   #4225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solchante View Post
a graphic of traffic fatalities since 1960:




source
So it would be fair to say that (from the peak) 3000 of the reduction in fatalities is structural.

1. Enforcement
2. Education and Driving culture.
3. Improved vehicle safety and

4. Much better roads.

Of the remainder I suspect that the fatality numbers will rise to nearer ( but not above) 2000 per annum after an economic recovery and it is not structural but temporary.

The UK which has heavy enforcement, lots of cameras and policing, had 1700 deaths in the last reported year ( to March 2013), same as Spain pretty much.

https://www.gov.uk/government/public...imates-q1-2013

So it is hard to see where Spain could improve matters much.

A heatwave in July/August would kill as many EXCESS people per week as die on the roads every year and I don't hear any talk of getting air conditioning to the poor old people most at risk.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 02:47 PM   #4226
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From 2007, fuel consumption has been reduced a 15% aproximately.

In 2007 there were 2731 fatalities in Spain. So the reduction in this period has been around a 60%, it means, fatalities has gone down four times faster than the traffic in the same period.

Even, with an improvement of economics in the country, and a reduction of unemployment, I think consider an upper limit of 1500 fatalities per year is kind of feasible.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 02:52 PM   #4227
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Is fuel consumption a good proxy for traffic? There are lots of other variables involved (speed, improved mileage per liter of cars...)
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Old January 9th, 2014, 02:56 PM   #4228
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Sure, you're right. But for measuring the use of vehicles is not that bad either.

Anyway, considering the overall available data, probably the reduction of traffic is smaller than a 15%, so there is even a weaker relation between reduction on traffic fatalities and reduction of traffic in general.

Last edited by Reivajar; January 9th, 2014 at 03:30 PM.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 03:00 PM   #4229
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In fairness to Iberian drivers I never found them to be really scary compared to Italian or Greek drivers and I was driving in Spain, on occasion, in the 1980s and 1990s.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 03:20 PM   #4230
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Also note that Spain gained about 9 million people (20%) since 1990, this is quite unlike most other European countries which have a stagnant population. In that light, the steep decline in fatalities is even more impressive.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 03:30 PM   #4231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
A heatwave in July/August would kill as many EXCESS people per week as die on the roads every year and I don't hear any talk of getting air conditioning to the poor old people most at risk.
Stop putting numbers in relation, you are upsetting the regulation nazis
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Old January 9th, 2014, 07:03 PM   #4232
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IMO, I haven't seen a huge change in Spanish driving culture in the latter years. Sure that some things have changed, but we never were Italy. Overtaking where's not permitted, ignoring red lights or systematically turning right or left where it's forbidden has never been common in Spain. Drinking and driving is still a big problem in rural areas (local holidays where everyone gets blackout drunk), though "respectable" people (bus/truck drivers, family men, grandads) don't do it anymore (it was part of our popular culture to have a drink after the meal when on a roadtrip). Speeding is still there, and in some motorways it's easy to be overtaken at 200+, especially in summer with all that many French/German/Dutch-registered drivers thinking this is Africa.

Basically, I don't think driving behavior is the key factor, but it has sure played a big role. The whole country has changed a lot since 1990. There are no more 1970s buses with no maintenance losing their brakes, no more old, narrow roads with slippery tarmac and random signage being the main link between important cities, and certainly stuff like driving with three glasses of wine and a shot of liquor at 4pm after a meal is not common anymore.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 10:15 PM   #4233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
How did Spain achieve this? Enforcement? I don't remember seeing any police patrol or devices during my 4 thousand km trip in Spain two years ago.
Europalization! I saw back in 2000 donkeys on roads, and they were not tourist attraction! Back in 2000 you could easily get vomit from eating in restaurants etc, Spain improved in all sectors dramatically during 2000-2010!
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Old January 9th, 2014, 10:38 PM   #4234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
IMO, I haven't seen a huge change in Spanish driving culture in the latter years. Sure that some things have changed, but we never were Italy. Overtaking where's not permitted, ignoring red lights or systematically turning right or left where it's forbidden has never been common in Spain.
Now, Italy has problems bur let's not generalize. 99.99% of red light are respected, maybe less in, say, Naples and surprisingly in Turin.
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Old January 9th, 2014, 10:50 PM   #4235
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Fixed radars have also contributed to the general reduction of speed and also to the reduction of the number of fatalities.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 12:04 AM   #4236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Now, Italy has problems bur let's not generalize.
Of course.

Italy had 7 151 road deaths in 1990 and reduced that by 2011 to 3 860 or a 46% reduction off a population of 60.6m in 2011. (source IRTAD 2013 page 240)

Spain had 9 032 road deaths in 1990 and reduced that by 2011 to 2000 deaths or a 77% reduction off a population of 46.1m in 2011 (source IRTAD 2013 page 392)

Note. I think Spain had a population of around 35m in 1990 too. Spain for many years inferred deaths from injuries rather than actually count them, the statistical method changed in 2007 and that may account for the difference in the graph up the page ( 6000 deaths ) and the 9000 deaths IRTAD have, that would be a 65% drop not a 77% drop of course.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 04:04 AM   #4237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
Back in 2000 you could easily get vomit from eating in restaurants etc, Spain improved in all sectors dramatically during 2000-2010!
I never have vomited because eat on restaurants on my near 40 years, not even on mcdonalds.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 06:43 PM   #4238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
Europalization! I saw back in 2000 donkeys on roads, and they were not tourist attraction! Back in 2000 you could easily get vomit from eating in restaurants etc, Spain improved in all sectors dramatically during 2000-2010!
Back in 2000 there were no donkeys on the road nor did people systematically vomit after eating in restaurants. We already were an EU-standard country back then.

Road-wise, the turning point arrived in the late 1980s, when first-generation autovías started construction and other roads started to be refurbished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by g.spinoza View Post
Now, Italy has problems bur let's not generalize. 99.99% of red light are respected, maybe less in, say, Naples and surprisingly in Turin.
Sorry, I actually didn't want to make a connection between the two points.
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Old January 10th, 2014, 06:50 PM   #4239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Note. I think Spain had a population of around 35m in 1990 too. Spain for many years inferred deaths from injuries rather than actually count them, the statistical method changed in 2007 and that may account for the difference in the graph up the page ( 6000 deaths ) and the 9000 deaths IRTAD have, that would be a 65% drop not a 77% drop of course.
That's quite interesting. Do you mean that deaths were considered as a fixed fraction of the injured throughout the years, or something more sophisticated was used? Was this made to account for those not dead-on-the-spot?
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Old January 11th, 2014, 01:20 PM   #4240
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The graphic only refers to "non urban" road deaths at 24 hours.

When urban council give their data, very probably we will be in 1500 deaths (at 24 hours)
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