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Old December 7th, 2014, 03:27 PM   #4721
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Quote:
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As I said before, expanding capacity along these urban corridors would be awfully expensive. Something we can't afford now, nor in 2007 when our economy was booming. There have been improvements anyway, such as San Pedro de Alcántara tunnel in A-7. No European country is carrying this kind of expansion. In the Netherlands, for example, they're widening a good part of their network, but this doesn't imply tearing down thousands of buildings. No European country is doing this, it would make sense in the 1960s, but now it's just crazy.
Well European countries like for example Sweden, Denmark, France and Germany to name are expanding their network's capacity, just because it is the only solution, no matter how many train networks you build. No 1000 tonnes of cement or furniture for a new house in a train... Also Barcelona-Tarragona regions. The other counties are focusing on this no-mans-land extremely expensive by-passes.

Also, old Autovias around cities are built often with wide medians. A2 is 2x3 to Guadalajara, A4 to Aranjuez, A6 to Villacastin (80 kms!). There is a really serious need on A3 (up to 120,000 ADT) Madrid-Arganda del Rey, A5 Mostoles-Navalcarnero (50,000-120,000 ADT) and A1 Alcobendas-El Molar for such upgrades. In stead of building R-1 that nobody will use! A1 is a trunk road in poor conditions and the main route to France.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 03:41 PM   #4722
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How do you know R-1 will be built? Such plans existed, but that means nothing -there were also plans to build an outer ringroad of Madrid via Toledo and Aranda de Duero, but this will never be built. Fortunately, we left behind 2004-2007 thinking.

As for roads around Madrid, they all feature 3x3 lanes or more plus collector lanes. A-2 has that layout until Guadalajara, A-3 until Arganda del Rey, A-4 until Pinto and A-6 until Las Rozas -which makes Madrid one of the least congested cities in Europe, with only 20 minutes lost per hour of travel according to TomTom's 2013 congestion report (cities way smaller such as Stuttgart or Marseille are far behind). It's the same in Barcelona. The ringroad has some congestion during peak hours, but there's a bypass that flows most of the time, and roads going out of the city are all 3+3 or more.

There's congestion in Madrid, sure, but no European city has better roads. Not even Paris. Yes there would be less congestion if they built a 10-lane motorway under La Castellana and turned every other road into a car park to cope with that many cars. But we won't build that because we're not crazy.

As always, you're deliberately saying things that are not true, such as the roads around Madrid being substandard or not able to cope with traffic. That is a lie. You look like a web bot -people reply you, yet some time later you post the same question.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 03:45 PM   #4723
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The TomTom Congestion Index: http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/trafficindex/

It shows Spanish cities are listed very low (=less congestion). Madrid is by far the lowest ranked 5+ million metro area.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 04:07 PM   #4724
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Wow... I live in the only Top60 European cities without congestion on motorways!!!!


(looking to them it will be hard to find congestion on motorways. Southern one has barely traffic and northern one was enlarged to a 2+3x3+2
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Old December 8th, 2014, 08:37 PM   #4725
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Last edited by RV; December 8th, 2014 at 09:31 PM.
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Old December 8th, 2014, 09:25 PM   #4726
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How do you know R-1 will be built? Such plans existed, but that means nothing -there were also plans to build an outer ringroad of Madrid via Toledo and Aranda de Duero, but this will never be built. Fortunately, we left behind 2004-2007 thinking.

As for roads around Madrid, they all feature 3x3 lanes or more plus collector lanes. A-2 has that layout until Guadalajara, A-3 until Arganda del Rey, A-4 until Pinto and A-6 until Las Rozas -which makes Madrid one of the least congested cities in Europe, with only 20 minutes lost per hour of travel according to TomTom's 2013 congestion report (cities way smaller such as Stuttgart or Marseille are far behind). It's the same in Barcelona. The ringroad has some congestion during peak hours, but there's a bypass that flows most of the time, and roads going out of the city are all 3+3 or more.

There's congestion in Madrid, sure, but no European city has better roads. Not even Paris. Yes there would be less congestion if they built a 10-lane motorway under La Castellana and turned every other road into a car park to cope with that many cars. But we won't build that because we're not crazy.

As always, you're deliberately saying things that are not true, such as the roads around Madrid being substandard or not able to cope with traffic. That is a lie. You look like a web bot -people reply you, yet some time later you post the same question.
That's not true. A-3 (Madrid-Valencia) is 2x2 from M-50 to Arganda with _some_ sections with collector lanes. ADT near 100 000.

A-6 3+3 + HOV till M-50, then 4+4 till AP-61 (Km 63, sections with 2+4+4+2 and a weird triple tunnel, guess for holiday traffic jams), and 3+3 till Km 81 (AP-51)

A-5 is a very low quality expressway/street with overpasses till M-40 with basically 3+3. Then 3+3 till Mostoles, and an upgrading is going on near Mostoles, but the section from there to Navalcarnero is ADT 50 000-80 000 and 2x2.

A-41 is 3+3 till Parla, but 2+2 till Toledo (ADT 40 000-70 000)

A-4 is fine with 3+3 till Aranjuez. A widening on this I think busiest Madrid access road should be considered though, with collector lines for example.

A-3 is 3+3 just till M-50. M-50-Arganda is 2+2 with ADT up to 100 000.

A-2 was finally just upgraded to proper 3+3 to Guadalajara.

A-1 is 3+3 or more till Guadalcampo, but up from there to El Molar it is in the same conditions as in the 1980's (just adding another carriageway next to the old road)! ADT over 50 000.

So you could explore more your land
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Old December 9th, 2014, 04:44 PM   #4727
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It's only A-6 up to Collado Villalba. Then, it becomes tolled and thus AP-6. Also, A-41? That only runs between Ciudad Real and Puertollano! (It's A-42 ).

After Guadalajara, A-2 is then 2x2 all the way to near Zaragoza (Which is OK as it stands now, last Saturday I drove it all the way to Ariza, exit 193), then at exit 304 it becomes 2x3 (Note that Madrid-bound the third lane is retained as a slow traffic lane due to the ascent to La Muela, being dropped at exit 299), then the Zaragoza Northern ring is either 2x4 or 2+3+3+2, after that it narrows to 2x3 to exit 330, and then continues as 2x2 until exit 339, where the motorway exits itself (Straight through is the tolled AP-2) and ends, leaving nothing but a 2 laned N-II for the next 90 km toll free. And it's full of trucks! (And due to one I haven't droven part of it yet, if now I would have driven almost 200 km of A-2/N-II in a single chunk now). Also in my last road trip, I found A-2 is actually shorter than what is posted .
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Old December 9th, 2014, 04:48 PM   #4728
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Quote:
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That's not true. A-3 (Madrid-Valencia) is 2x2 from M-50 to Arganda with _some_ sections with collector lanes. ADT near 100 000.

A-6 3+3 + HOV till M-50, then 4+4 till AP-61 (Km 63, sections with 2+4+4+2 and a weird triple tunnel, guess for holiday traffic jams), and 3+3 till Km 81 (AP-51)

A-5 is a very low quality expressway/street with overpasses till M-40 with basically 3+3. Then 3+3 till Mostoles, and an upgrading is going on near Mostoles, but the section from there to Navalcarnero is ADT 50 000-80 000 and 2x2.

A-41 is 3+3 till Parla, but 2+2 till Toledo (ADT 40 000-70 000)

A-4 is fine with 3+3 till Aranjuez. A widening on this I think busiest Madrid access road should be considered though, with collector lines for example.

A-3 is 3+3 just till M-50. M-50-Arganda is 2+2 with ADT up to 100 000.

A-2 was finally just upgraded to proper 3+3 to Guadalajara.

A-1 is 3+3 or more till Guadalcampo, but up from there to El Molar it is in the same conditions as in the 1980's (just adding another carriageway next to the old road)! ADT over 50 000.

So you could explore more your land
You exagerate AADT figures -AADT on A-3 between Rivas and Arganda (which is 2x2) is nowhere near 100,000 vehicles a day. Anyway, here are the plans to make it 3x3. As for A-1, there are also plans to build a 3rd lane until San Agustín de Guadalix. They were withdrawn earlier this year due to cost reasons, but they are not cancelled. A-5 is going to be widened to 3x3 lanes between Móstoles and Parque Coimbra (budget has already been approved).

As for A-42, there are no plans to extend the 3rd lane further South, and I honestly think it's not necessary.

As you can see, these roads are not neglected. Plans to make them 3x3 are in different stages, but the 3rd lane will be built sooner or later. We just have no money -and right now finishing roads that have been U/C for a decade or more is more important than tendering new stuff.
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Old December 9th, 2014, 08:14 PM   #4729
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You exagerate AADT figures -AADT on A-3 between Rivas and Arganda (which is 2x2) is nowhere near 100,000 vehicles a day. Anyway, here are the plans to make it 3x3. As for A-1, there are also plans to build a 3rd lane until San Agustín de Guadalix. They were withdrawn earlier this year due to cost reasons, but they are not cancelled. A-5 is going to be widened to 3x3 lanes between Móstoles and Parque Coimbra (budget has already been approved).

As for A-42, there are no plans to extend the 3rd lane further South, and I honestly think it's not necessary.

As you can see, these roads are not neglected. Plans to make them 3x3 are in different stages, but the 3rd lane will be built sooner or later. We just have no money -and right now finishing roads that have been U/C for a decade or more is more important than tendering new stuff.
This are good news, but the widening of A-5 is as I remember just about 3-4 Km's or so. It needs to be widened to Navalcarnero.

Good news for A-3.

As for A-1, it is a very dangerous road in the section we mention. It needs to be upgraded.

And yes, I'm sorry, I ment A-42. AP-41 has ADT below 1,000

ANOTHER uncomprehensible thing in Spain: parallel tolled waste-of money roads and bad-quality non-tolled expressways! Instead of upgrading A-2, quit the tolls in a little section of the AP-2 -.-
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Old December 10th, 2014, 05:12 PM   #4730
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R-2 was a mistake, as well as R-3, R-4, R-5 and AP-41. The only purpose of these motorways was to fill the pockets of the contractors that built them. Our economy was doing well and so did corruption. As for AP-2, it does not follow the same corridor of A-2, so they serve different purposes. AP-2 has reasonable traffic levels (over 15,000 vpd) despite being tolled and A-2 between Fraga and Barcelona does not need any widening -traffic is low and when it isn't, it's 3+3 or more. Plus, there are several upgrades U/C in Barcelona metro area.
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Old December 10th, 2014, 05:17 PM   #4731
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+0.5

They were a huuuuuuge mistake
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Old December 10th, 2014, 05:18 PM   #4732
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AP-41 could only be profitable if there was non-stop congestion on A-42. Or if the entire area between Madrid and Toledo was developed.
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Old December 10th, 2014, 07:10 PM   #4733
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Don't forget the original plans for AP-41, which were cancelled due to environmental concerns.
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Old December 11th, 2014, 08:38 AM   #4734
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AP-41 could only be profitable if there was non-stop congestion on A-42. Or if the entire area between Madrid and Toledo was developed.
Neither in that case...

look at the map and it was required to give some tours. It takes longer by a tolled motorway rather than a free motorway!!!

It had to have a great congestion to be profitable...
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Old December 11th, 2014, 11:13 PM   #4735
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AP-41 could only be profitable if there was non-stop congestion on A-42. Or if the entire area between Madrid and Toledo was developed.
At 2006 growth levels, it's likely that the entire Madrid province would be built up by now. But those levels (the ones upon which motorway plans were drawn) were unsustainable and unrealistic. AP-41 was a botched job of a road anyway -just look at the lack of interchanges. It crosses CM-41 and A-42, yet there's no connection between them. As I said before, the single purpose of this road was filling someone's pockets -something we're very familiar with in Spain.

Quote:
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Don't forget the original plans for AP-41, which were cancelled due to environmental concerns.
The original plans for A-41 to Córdoba didn't require a toll road parallel to A-42. If traffic on A-42 was to grow due to long-distance traffic to Córdoba choosing that route over A-4, a widening would have coped with it. But I don't think that building another motorway to Córdoba is necessary. A-4 has enough capacity, especially now that Despeñaperros pass is not a problem anymore. Plus, traffic to Sevilla has now the option to use A-5+A-66.

This is (more or less) the route that A-41 would have followed:





(Videos are not mine).

As you can see, the existing road does fine. There's no need for a motorway. Plus, that area has a high environmental value. That's why Ministerio de Medio Ambiente didn't let A-41 through.
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Old December 12th, 2014, 05:19 PM   #4736
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Trolled motorways a mistake? I disagree. Mistakes are made unintentionally.
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Old December 13th, 2014, 01:31 PM   #4737
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Wish me luck, in some minutes I'll be crossing the Ventamillo gorge by bus. An adventure awaits for me...
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Old December 13th, 2014, 05:01 PM   #4738
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Spain has a fantastic network overall and it will be finished as a _network_ next year when the A7 A8 and A66 are all finally done.

The Radiales madness was caused by the very close connections between some Cajas and certain large road building contractors where the Cajas were almost their personal banks.

Even though concessions were supposed to save the state money long term it was the same taxpayer who had to bail out those rotten Cajas in the end. Spain will not repeat this mistake again.
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Old December 14th, 2014, 05:52 AM   #4739
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Many EU countries overspent in the 1990s and 2000s. However, I think that at least Spain and Portugal got a lot of infrastructure done for the money, it will be there for another century, whereas some other countries burn cash to pay for lots of state employees...
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Old December 14th, 2014, 11:24 AM   #4740
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I believe Spain had the lowest public debt in southern Europe in 2007.
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