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Old December 14th, 2007, 11:15 AM   #481
ChrisZwolle
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Yeah, and a lot has been constructed since 2005. And there is still some 4.955 kilometers of motorway projects to construct.

( I calculated all projects as said on Spanish wikipedia together, if anyone's interested, i can make a list).
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Old December 14th, 2007, 04:01 PM   #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylandman View Post
in december 2005 Spain had over 13,000 kms:

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anexo:A...de_Espa%C3%B1a
As if Wikipedia was a reliable source. That's 1,500 km more than what the OECD says. Sorry but I prefer to stay with OECD figure, so there's no evidence that Spain has the longest motorway network (also, the OECD mentions that Spain has a very "large" definition of what is a motorway compared to other countries, which inflates their figures).
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Old December 14th, 2007, 04:17 PM   #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
As if Wikipedia was a reliable source. That's 1,500 km more than what the OECD says. Sorry but I prefer to stay with OECD figure, so there's no evidence that Spain has the longest motorway network (also, the OECD mentions that Spain has a very "large" definition of what is a motorway compared to other countries, which inflates their figures).
FYI: i have calculated all Spanish Autovias and Autopista's together, and came around 13.500 kms for 2007. I don't have the list here, because i am at work right now, but i can show it tonight.

2005 is now 3 years ago, and it's not like Spanish road construction is in a standstill...
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Old December 14th, 2007, 05:11 PM   #484
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The Wikipedia figure said 13,100 km in 2005! So they counted 1,500 more kilometers than the OECD that year. No wonder Wikipedia is little reliable.

You counted Spanish autopistas and autovías yourself, good. Then I suggest you do the same for France. 11,609 km, the figure the OECD gave for France in 2005, doesn't include the 2*2 expressways, contrary to Spain, so the figures are not comparable. If you include all 2*2 expressways in the Spanish figure, then you have to do the same for France.

Here's the most accurate map of French motorways/freeways and 2*2 expressways. Everything is shown, not just the official "autoroutes". As you can see the real network is much longer than only the "autoroutes". The map is accurate as of mid-December 2007. Do you have a similarly accurate map for Spain?



Here in blue you can see the 2*2 expressways, i.e. the motorways that are not officially called "autoroutes", and which are therefore not counted in the official French total, unlike in Spain. So let's count everything and then we can make comparisons.

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Old December 14th, 2007, 08:56 PM   #485
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France has 10.689 km of Autoroute, and 3.097 km of Voie Expresse, as of end 2006.
Spain has 12.946 km of Autopista & Autovía as of end 2006.
Germany has 12.624 km of Autobahn, and 1.561 km of Gelbe Autobahnen as of end 2006.

As of end 2006:
1) Germany 14.185km
2) France 13.786km
3) Spain 12.946km

remark: not all German Gelbe Autobahnen have very high standards, often bad geometry, short on and offramps and often the lack of a proper shoulder. France's Autoroutes and Voie Expresse are usually at a high standard, and that is also the case in Spanish Autopista's and Autovías.

We can say without a doubt that Spain has been the most productive in 2007 road construction, and this pace is likely to continue, as there are another 4.955 km of Autopista's and Autovías planned or under construction as of end 2007.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 10:42 PM   #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
France has 10.689 km of Autoroute, and 3.097 km of Voie Expresse, as of end 2006.
Spain has 12.946 km of Autopista & Autovía as of end 2006.
Germany has 12.624 km of Autobahn, and 1.561 km of Gelbe Autobahnen as of end 2006.

As of end 2006:
1) Germany 14.185km
2) France 13.786km
3) Spain 12.946km
Where did you get these figures? Did you count them yourself? In any case it confirms what I was saying. Spain doesn't have the longest motorway network in Europe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
We can say without a doubt that Spain has been the most productive in 2007 road construction, and this pace is likely to continue, as there are another 4.955 km of Autopista's and Autovías planned or under construction as of end 2007.
What motorways were opened in Spain in 2007? In France they opened several motorways such as the A85 autoroute near Tours and they are working on the spectacular Tamarind Road (a motorway in fact) in the Réunion

I don't know how many kilometers of French motorways are planned and/or under construction. I know they will build the Sées-Caen motorway, the missing link between Clermont-Ferrand and Lyon (a spectacular motorway it will be), the Sens-Orléans motorway, the Bordeaux-Pau motorway, the Annecy-Genève motorway, and the Gap-Grenoble motorway which will probably become the most spectacular European motorway.

Unfortunately the big environment conference in October decided to stop all new construction of motorways in France (except for those I mentioned which were already planned). I think it's a stupid decision because some cities/regions still need motorway links (like we've been waiting for the Toulouse-Lyon motorway for a long time), but that's the way it is. So I'd say at the most they'll probably add only 1,000 to 2,000 km to the current French network.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 10:50 PM   #487
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You can always count on Brisavoine to defend to the death the glory of France.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 10:51 PM   #488
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Oh Chriszwolle, since you seem to have access to stats, I wonder if you know which country has the longest network of 2*3 motorways in Europe. In France as you can see on the map I posted in the previous page, there are already a lot, and they're planning to add some more (like they are going to make the motorway from Toulouse to the Mediterranean entirely 2*3). In Spain I can't remember any 2*3 motorway except in the metropolitan area of Barcelona (and of course Madrid but I've never driven there).
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Old December 14th, 2007, 10:53 PM   #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xote View Post
You can always count on Brisavoine to defend to the death the glory of France.
It doesn't have anything to do with glory. It has to do with factual accuracy. If people claim something they should make sure their claim is true. That's all.

By the way, I remember the days when the motorway stopped at Alicante and then it was terrible terrible roads to reach Algeciras down south. And older people in my family still remember the unpaved dirt roads in the province of Almeria back in the 1970s.

Spain has changed a lot for sure.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 10:54 PM   #490
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2x3? Definatly Great Britain. That's the building standard there, the far majority of the British motorways are 2x3 lanes.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 10:59 PM   #491
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Yeah, but there aren't that many British motorways in the first place, so I'm not so sure Britain has the most. As for Germany I've never driven there, so I don't know if they have many 2*3.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 11:10 PM   #492
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I think Chris data is very reliable. The motorway network must be pretty similar among the 'big three' nowadays, although it's difficult to make a proper comparison.

About the pace in Spain, I only have data for the motorways funded by the Spanish Government (as you may know the Spanish Autonumus Communities also build road by themselves, especially in the last years).

- 1,121 km of new motorways opened between Mar2004 (last elections) and Feb2007.

- 1,303 km of new motorways started the contruction works between Mar2004 and Feb2007.

Both data taken from official sources.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 11:14 PM   #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisavoine View Post
Yeah, but there aren't that many British motorways in the first place, so I'm not so sure Britain has the most. As for Germany I've never driven there, so I don't know if they have many 2*3.
Germany has a lot, but by far not all through motorways.

About Great Britain; i made a list here

I don't want to spoil this thread with German of British issues.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 11:28 PM   #494
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Maybe you should open a thread about 2*3 motorways. It's an interesting subject. Driving on a 2*3 motorway is a completely different experience from driving on a 2*2 motorway, I can tell from experience when they enlarged the motorways in my home region.

For France according to the map posted on the previous page I find about 2,100 km of 2*3 motorways (counting with Michelin maps, excluding suburban motorways in big cities). In the UK they have only 3,657 km of motorways in total according to the OECD but not all of it is 2*3. In Spain and Germany I have no idea. If you have data it would be great to open a thread like I said.
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Old December 14th, 2007, 11:42 PM   #495
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Maybe Germany has more kilometers of 3+3 motorways. A great portion on main axis (A1 to A9) has 3 lanes, and due to density in Germany it's quite common finding a lot of 3+3 motorways in any region.

Long strechtes with 3+3 lanes.

A1: Köln - Dortmund and Hamburg - Lübeck
A2: Essen - Postdam (almost the whole motorway)
A3: Essen - Ashaffenburg
A4: more than 50% but combined with some 2+2 lanes stretches.
A5: Baden-Baden - A6 junction and Darmstadt - A45 junction.
A7: Hamburg - Hildesheim
A9: München - Postdam

I've only wrote long stretches on main axis, but there are a lot of 3+3 lanes stretches. For more info I recommend that map: http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/index_e.html

In Spain there are not long stretches with 3+3 lanes. You can find them easily in urban areas (Madrid, Barcelona, Valence, Seville, Malaga, Bilbao, Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, etc) but it's not very common on long distances. A think longest 3+3 or more lanes stretches in Spain are in Barcelona (AP-7 surely) and in Madrid (A-4 and A-6). Moeover you have to think that Spain has not a population uniformly distributed. It's concentrated on the coast and in the center (Madrid).

And don't worry about talking about German, French or British motorways. We are comparing.
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Old December 15th, 2007, 12:37 AM   #496
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En la pagina 152 del Anuario http://www.fomento.es/NR/rdonlyres/D...nuario2006.pdf podemos leer lo siguiente:

7. Carreteras
2. Red de carreteras del Estado, Comunidades Autónomas y Diputaciones y Cabildos
por tipo y ancho de vía

Año 2006
Km totales de la red 166.339 km

Suma de km de vías de gran capacidad 13.872 km

Autopistas de peaje 2.815 km

Autovías y autopistas libres 9.258 km

Carreteras de doble calzada 1.799


Y en la pagina 172 os encontráis con esta tabla para disipar cualquier duda:

RED DE ALTA CAPACIDAD
TOTAL NACIONAL A 31-12-2006 (*)

AUTOPISTAS DE PEAJE
Dependientes del Estado ................................................................... 2.337,2
Dependientes de las Comunidades Autonomas ................................. 352,3
Dependientes de las Diputaciones .................................................... 125,4
Total .......................................................................... 2.814,9

AUTOPISTAS LIBRES Y AUTOVIAS
Dependientes del Estado ................................................................... 7.014,2
Dependientes de las Comunidades Autonomas ................................. 1.670,6
Dependientes de las Diputaciones .................................................... 574,9
Total .......................................................................... 9.259,7

DOBLE CALZADA
Dependientes del Estado ................................................................... 726,8
Dependientes de las Comunidades Autonomas ................................. 793,2
Dependientes de las Diputaciones .................................................... 277,5
Total .......................................................................... 1.797,5


Un ejemplo de los datos que contiene:

ANDALUCIA

AUTOPISTAS DE PEAJE

Dependientes del Estado ...................................................................192,4
Total ................................................................................... 192,4

PROVINCIA DEPENDENCIA CARRETERA DENOMINACION TRAMO KILOMETROS
CADIZ ESTADO AP-4 Sevilla a Cadiz L.P.Sevilla-Puerto Real 44,1
CADIZ ESTADO AP-7 Autopista del Mediterráneo Guadiaro-L.P. Málaga 2,2

Total Provincia .......................................................................... 46,3

Y así provincia por provincia. Mucho mejor y más preciso que con un mapa de carreteras.
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Old December 15th, 2007, 12:47 AM   #497
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Upcoming Autovia and Autopista projects of road owned by the government;

AP-1 Eibar - Vitoria 40km
A-2 Alfajarín - Fraga 91km
A-2 Caldes de Malavella - La Jonquera 68km
A-7 Barcelona - Villafranca del Penedes 32km (As B-24 currently)
A-7 El Vendrell - Tarragona 25km
A-7 Tarragona - Valencia 144km
A-7 Ontinyent - Alcoy 31km
A-7 Adra - Motril - Almunecar 80km
AP-7 Bypass Alicante 25km
A-8 Solares - Torrelavega 28km
A-8 Unquera - Llanes 21km
A-8 Muros de Nalón - Ballota 20km
A-8 Otur - Villapedre 9km
A-8 Navia - Ribadeo 23km
A-8 Reinante - Villalba 59km
A-8 Abeledo - Baamonde 5km
A-11 Soria - El Burgo de Osma 64km
A-11 El Burgo de Osma - Tudela de Duero 130km
A-11 Zamora - Portuguese border 86km
A-13 Logrono - Soria 105km
A-14 Lleida - Benaberre 58km
A-15 Medinaceli - Tudela 154km
A-21 Pamplona - Jaca 110km
A-22 Huesca - Lleida 110km
A-23 Teruel - Zaragoza 28km
A-24 Daroca - Burgos ~300km
A-26 Figueres - Ripoll 73km
A-27 Tarragona - Lleida ~100km
A-32 Linares - Albacete 250km
A-33 Cieza - Fuente la Higuera ~ 50km?
A-40 Avila - Maqueda 95km
A-40 Maqueda - Toledo 38km
A-40 Toledo - Tarancón 100km
A-40 Tarancón - Carracosa del Campo 29km
A-40 Cuenca - Teruel ~140km
AP-41 Toledo - Córdoba ~ 250km
A-43 Torrefresneda - Atalaya de Canavete ~250km
A-44 Granada - Motril 27km
A-45 Córdoba - Málaga 50km
A-48 Vejer - Algeciras 120km
A-50 Avila - Salamanca 96km
AP-53 Dozon - Ourense 30km
A-54 Santiago de Compostela - Lugo 110km
A-57 Pontevedra - Porrino 35km
A-58 Trujillo - Caceres 40km
A-60 Valladolid - León 130km
A-63 La Espina - Luarca 30km
A-65 Palencia - Benavente 92km
A-66 Benavente - Zamora 50km
A-66 Zamora - Salamanca 56km
A-66 Plasencia 41km
A-66 Mérida - Sevilla 23km
A-67 Palencia - Santander 78km
A-68 Tortosa - Miranda de Ebro ~ 500km
AP-69 Reinosa - Miranda de Ebro 120km
A-72 Monforte de Lemos - Chantada 30km
A-73 Burgos - Aguilar de Campo 79km
A-74 Almadén - Ciudad Real 20km
A-75 Verín - Portuguese border 11km
A-76 Ponferrada - Ourense 150km
A-80 Ribadasella - Cangas de Onis 21km
R-1 Madrid - El Molar 45km
R-3 Arganda del Rey - Tarancón 45km

---->>> TOTAL: 5.250km

EDIT: Source: Spanish wikipedia!

Last edited by ChrisZwolle; December 15th, 2007 at 12:52 AM. Reason: source added
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Old December 15th, 2007, 12:49 AM   #498
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Quote:
Carreteras de doble calzada 1.799
I doubt if those are motorways, literally translated it means something like "road with double lanes". If you subtract it, you have about 12.073km of motorway in 2006, which can be close to my figure of 12.946 km in 2007.
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Old December 15th, 2007, 01:53 AM   #499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reivajar View Post
For more info I recommend that map: http://www.autobahnatlas-online.de/index_e.html
Super!

Now who will volunteer to count the number of km of 2*3 on that German map?
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Old December 15th, 2007, 12:16 PM   #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chriszwolle View Post
I doubt if those are motorways, literally translated it means something like "road with double lanes". If you subtract it, you have about 12.073km of motorway in 2006, which can be close to my figure of 12.946 km in 2007.
In Spain are most km in road with double lanes!!
Only 2 highways....:
-A-4: 660km.
-A-7: 1300-1400km.
2x3? I don't understand....

But 3x3 isn't only in Madrid or Barcelona, there are in all the big cities.... I don't know hardly big cities of Spain but I see in Valencia, Madrid of course, Vigo, Cordoba.... And are too small zones of 3x3 in rural zones....

Ah, too are 4x4.... but is the max. But in some zones of Madrid with many entries and exits can be 5 or 6!!

Today autovías and autopistas that begin in Madrid (I forget):
-A1
-R1 (future)
-A2
-R2
-M-607
-A-6
-M65 (future)
-M501 (future)
-A5
-R5
-A42
-AP41
-A4
-R4
-A3
-R3

And many others most shorts....
PD: In this roads aren't the highways of Madrid Metropolitan area.... (Circunvalations, connecting cities....)

Last edited by Pavlemadrid; December 15th, 2007 at 12:29 PM.
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