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Old March 17th, 2015, 04:08 PM   #4981
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But Spain should spend much more on city accesses than on mountain motorways for sheep!

Spain has a number of congested and 'urban' or near urban 1st generation A roads from the 1970s and 1980s that need upgrading in situ or rerouting in extremis. These will not be cheap jobs unlike 2x2 across the Meseta.

Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular

What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country...other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.

From now on Motorway projects should be economically driven rather than socially driven or 'bank and developer friends' driven as were the Radiales and the AP7 for example...a fine waste of money they were.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 04:21 PM   #4982
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What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country.
..other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.
Spain needs to close that gigantic gap, building a Toledo-Sevilla and a Ciudad Real - Don Benito highways.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 04:34 PM   #4983
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There is practically no traffic in that area. It's sparsely populated. Although I agree that Badajoz - Valencia/Alicante could be much faster with a new autovía from Mérida to Ciudad Real.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 04:41 PM   #4984
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Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country...other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.
...a fine waste of money they were.
I think the u/c motorways* of the south should be completed too. There are a lot of sections which are announced to be opened in 2015. Stopping these projects would really be a hugh waste of money...

*Also sections which are not yet u/c!
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Old March 17th, 2015, 05:06 PM   #4985
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Spain needs to close that gigantic gap, building a Toledo-Sevilla and a Ciudad Real - Don Benito highways.
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
There is practically no traffic in that area. It's sparsely populated. Although I agree that Badajoz - Valencia/Alicante could be much faster with a new autovía from Mérida to Ciudad Real.
One solution would be to build such a road as a 1+1 with 2+2 bypasses of significant towns along the route ( 20k persons plus) where there might be a bit of traffic on occasion. EG Almaden west of Ciudad Real. However there is a road to the east coast via Toledo and avoiding Madrid.

Building roads to nowhere and for no real traffic is no longer an acceptable pastime is Spain. Sorting out congestion in and around the economic engines like Valencia and Santander is a much higher national priority.

Spain is showing a similar pattern to that of Ireland in early 2013 as it pulls out of recession ( having gone into recession some time after Ireland) . It will not take much more economic growth to seriously congest some of the more economically important centres. Dealing with those issues in good time should be the key priority.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 05:20 PM   #4986
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One solution would be to build such a road as a 1+1 with 2+2 bypasses of significant towns along the route ( 20k persons plus) where there might be a bit of traffic on occasion. EG Almaden west of Ciudad Real.
Why should a town like Almaden need a 2+2 bypass? I guess AADT is much higher around Almaden than in the middle of nowhere but I guess most of it is local traffic which from/to the town. I think the bypass would be the section which is needing 2x2 the least.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 06:35 PM   #4987
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Overtaking opportunities.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 07:05 PM   #4988
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There is still a number of the so-called 1st generation Autovías. There was a plan to rebuild most of them, but most sections were never upgraded. This includes a total of about 1,500 km in the A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-5 and A-6. Besides, the A-62 between Burgos and Tordesillas and the A-92 between Sevilla and Granada are also the same kind of substandard Autovías. Almost all these routes carry reasonably high volumes of traffic, at least for Spanish standards.

Then you have the projects in urban areas. Barcelona, Granada, Murcia and Seville would greatly benefit from the new ring roads and access roads. Granada and Murcia, despite not being as big as Barcelona or Seville, have AADTs over 100k.

Those would be my two priorities at the moment.

And if only the government would stop throwing money into the bottomless pit that is building new high speed railway lines to nowhere... They should invest instead on a proper modernization of the existing railway network, so that rail freight becomes a real alternative, thus reducing truck traffic on roads.

In addition, as mentioned earlier, the government is planning to ban truck traffic on national roads if there is a parallel tolled motorway, with half of the toll being paid by the government. That would make many planned Autovías redundant (e.g. A-4 Sevilla-Jerez, A-68 Zaragoza-Miranda).


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Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular
Mmh... really? I don't know of any seriously congested road in the Pyrenees. Maybe the accesses to ski stations, but that's not enough to build a motorway there.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Spain needs to close that gigantic gap, building a Toledo-Sevilla and a Ciudad Real - Don Benito highways.
There isn't much traffic there. AADT on the N-430 between Ciudad Real and Don Benito is <2,000 most of the time. Same for the N-420 Toledo-Córdoba. The current national roads are OK. Besides, the motorway Toledo-Córdoba was rejected for environmental reasons.
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Old March 17th, 2015, 11:32 PM   #4989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Spain has a number of congested and 'urban' or near urban 1st generation A roads from the 1970s and 1980s that need upgrading in situ or rerouting in extremis. These will not be cheap jobs unlike 2x2 across the Meseta.

Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular

What Spain does not need is any more motorway in the southern half of the country...other than a Seville bypass perhaps. The network should be considered complete down there once the A7 is finally delivered this year, other than perhaps a few very short spurs from existing motorways.

From now on Motorway projects should be economically driven rather than socially driven or 'bank and developer friends' driven as were the Radiales and the AP7 for example...a fine waste of money they were.
No. There are no congestion problems in the Pyrenees. There are roads that need upgrades because some towns are rather isolated, but there are several projects underway. These are, from West to East:

- A-23/A-21 (U/C, no completion date but likely to be finished by 2020)
- A-14 (Lleida-Sopeira motorway, most of it still in planning stage)
- N-260 Gerri de la Sal bypass (U/C, but works are stopped and there's no completion date)
- Organyà and Coll de Nargó bypasses in C-14 (in planning)
- C-16 widening between Berga and Bagà, by adding a reversible third lane with a movable median (in planning)
- Les Preses and Olot bypass (likely to start construction in 2016)

Other projects that are still in discussion stage are:

- La Seu d'Urgell bypass
- N-260 between Olot and C-38 (still unclear if duplication is necessary)
- La Bonaigua pass tunnel
- Collada de Toses tunnel

As you can see, the people in the different Governments of Spain are doing their jobs.

As for first-generation autovías that need upgrading, this topic has already been discussed more than once in this thread. Most of the "old" motorways have been overhauled, and the few capacity problems that remain are set to be fixed, slow but steady, in the coming years. I wrote a post about it some time ago, with links to news articles and all, but I'm too tired to search it. And then there's the story of that "ugly" gap between Ciudad Real and Don Benito -an area with an extremely low population density and a very high ecological value, that does already have very good roads (you seen N-430 on Google Street View?).

As always, looking at a map doesn't tell the whole story about a country's road network -and looking for information a bit deeper than this thread's last post is necessary for getting the whole picture.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 12:26 AM   #4990
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From what I hear Spain already has a fantastic motorway network so is that really the area most worthy of further large scale investment (except finishing already started projects)? I have my doubts about that…

I'll be in Andalusia in two months for 1 1/2 weeks traveling around with both train and a car and so will have a chance to check out myself how well it all works in practice
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Old March 18th, 2015, 12:44 AM   #4991
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If you wanna take a tour and choose one route (or rail) for first trip and another for return, ask here
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Old March 18th, 2015, 12:48 AM   #4992
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and about Pyrenees I guess one of the biggest problem is Yesa-Jaca.
A-21 will take a long time and it is not a freeway at all.

But anyway A21 doesn't cross mountains. It just go beside them. I think it hasn't any tunnel in the project, indeed
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Old March 18th, 2015, 12:58 AM   #4993
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If you wanna take a tour and choose one route (or rail) for first trip and another for return, ask here
Thanks for an offer We have already decided on our approximate route. It will be a day trip with a train from Sevilla to Cordoba and then with a car South to Cadiz and then along the coast to Sierra Nevada and Granada and back to Sevilla again. But if you are good in the area - any particularly beautiful mountain roads in the general area between Granada and the coast?
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Old March 18th, 2015, 12:59 AM   #4994
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Spain probably needs to build some mountain motorway as well. A lot of the seriously congested roads are in the Pyrenees in particular
What? N-330, for example, only gets congested after long weekends, otherwise is fine. Although they are converting it to A-23, so the jams should be gone upon completion.
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From now on Motorway projects should be economically driven rather than socially driven or 'bank and developer friends' driven as were the Radiales and the AP7 for example...a fine waste of money they were.
AP-7 only between Cartagena and Vera . Another failure is AP-36, they should have been built it with no tolls at all (and thus as A-36, a number which at the time of its construction was taken by an A-7 section in Alicante province), that way it would have been a great alternate to A-3, especially in summer. But you know what happened, and now the companies managing this and other low traffic troll motorways are bankrupt.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 01:07 AM   #4995
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AP-7 only between Cartagena and Vera . Another failure is AP-36, they should have been built it with no tolls at all (and thus as A-36, a number which at the time of its construction was taken by an A-7 section in Alicante province), that way it would have been a great alternate to A-3, especially in summer. But you know what happened, and now the companies managing this and other low traffic troll motorways are bankrupt.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 02:32 AM   #4996
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What Spain has as a really unique feature are parallel highways that follow close together such as R-4 and A-3 around Aruañjez or A-7/AP-7 in Tarragona.

There are very few such situations in Europe, at least. Sometimes you have highways that serve a similar alignment such as A14/SS16 in Italy (between Foggia and Bari) or A67/A5 in Germany (between Darmstadt and Heidelberg/Mannheim), but they are separated by some distance.

If these Spanish highways were treated as a system, we could talk of 4x2 or 4x3 highways
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Old March 18th, 2015, 04:45 AM   #4997
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If these Spanish highways were treated as a system, we could talk of 4x2 or 4x3 highways
Yes and by the same way the Radiales could have been built just as easily by widening the existing A or AP roads to 2x3 if that was required,

Anyway I just want to point out _again_ that very few 'new' proposed motorway projects in Spain are worth building....mainly because Spain has one of the best Motorway networks in the world already.

Spain should look at investing in other infrastructure types like high speed broadband which would reduce commuter traffic as the commuters could telework a few days a week, up north anyway.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 07:30 PM   #4998
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I'm not really sure if it would've been cheaper to widen the "A-" around Madrid or build the "R-" as it was done eventually.

In an urban area such as Madrid sometimes there can be no room for a proper widening. The R- roads, if toll-free, could've been used as "express" roads to get to/from the centre or through the urban area itself, leaving the old A- roads as connection between the suburbs and the centre.

For instance, if travelling from Zaragoza to Córdoba, you could take the R-2, then the M-50, and then the R-4, leaving the A-2 and the A-4 for commuter traffic.
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Old March 18th, 2015, 11:55 PM   #4999
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What Spain has as a really unique feature are parallel highways that follow close together such as R-4 and A-3 around Aruañjez or A-7/AP-7 in Tarragona.

There are very few such situations in Europe, at least. Sometimes you have highways that serve a similar alignment such as A14/SS16 in Italy (between Foggia and Bari) or A67/A5 in Germany (between Darmstadt and Heidelberg/Mannheim), but they are separated by some distance.

If these Spanish highways were treated as a system, we could talk of 4x2 or 4x3 highways
AP-7/A-7 in Tarragona is a different case. A-7 is a ringroad for short-distance traffic, which has many exits and interchanges and is very close to downtown, whilst AP-7 handles long-distance one; it has fewer exits and runs further from the city. There are many of these multiplexes in Europe, such as A7/N7 in Valence.

I do think, however, that A-7 South of Tarragona (between Cambrils and L'Hospitalet de l'Infant) should have been an overhaul of AP-7 plus removing the toll on that section. There's not enough traffic to justify two parallel motorways.
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Old March 19th, 2015, 01:35 AM   #5000
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AP-7/A-7 in Tarragona is a different case. A-7 is a ringroad for short-distance traffic, which has many exits and interchanges and is very close to downtown, whilst AP-7 handles long-distance one; it has fewer exits and runs further from the city. There are many of these multiplexes in Europe, such as A7/N7 in Valence.

I do think, however, that A-7 South of Tarragona (between Cambrils and L'Hospitalet de l'Infant) should have been an overhaul of AP-7 plus removing the toll on that section. There's not enough traffic to justify two parallel motorways.
what do you think of A45 and AP46 north of Malaga?
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Last edited by Suburbanist; March 19th, 2015 at 01:26 PM. Reason: fixed road numbers
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