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Old April 13th, 2015, 02:52 PM   #5141
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It seems that in Aragon they only considered A-220 between Carinena and Fuendetodos, and A-228 except for the section South of Mora de Rubielos. I've already suffered the first one, it is in such a bad shape it would be better to go off-road thru the fields. Heck, if I have to choose between that and the Ventamillo gorge, I would directly choose the later.
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Old April 13th, 2015, 04:55 PM   #5142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
I think they exaggerate a little bit -Spanish roads are in very good condition compared to, say, Southern France.
Probably constuction companies are part of the association, thus they want to press road authorities to invest more by exaggerating the bad quality of the roads. Anyway, it's true that Spanish road need better maintenance.
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Old April 16th, 2015, 12:07 AM   #5143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
I think they exaggerate a little bit -Spanish roads are in very good condition compared to, say, Southern France.
I saw some of your videos, and if Catalonian roads are somehow deficient, I don't know how to classify Brazilian ones. Perhaps a joke or something intended to be a road.

I think Spanish roads, in general, are among the best in Europe in terms of capacity and conservation. Spain's highway system is simply great.
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Old April 16th, 2015, 01:38 PM   #5144
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In my opinion, main roads in Spain are generally good.

However, regional or country roads differ greatly from region to region. A few examples:

Extremadura (best roads) vs. Aragón (second to last): They are about the same size and population. Extremadura is the poorest Spanish region, while Aragón is slightly above the average. A forumer from Aragón posted ten regional roads (just one level below national roads) from his region which are badly mantained to some degree: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=5159

Castilla y León (6th region with the best roads) vs. La Rioja (the region with the worst roads): Castilla y León is bigger than Portugal but has less than a quarter of its population. La Rioja is the smallest region in mainland Spain and is more than twice as densely populated, yet our roads are worse.
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Old April 16th, 2015, 03:44 PM   #5145
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Some are even worse than a goat path .

Castile and Leon is the largest subnational division in Europe . I'll be entering this weekend, as I'll be doing this route: https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Huesc...d42.131845!3e0. Several roads and motorways I've never seen before will be falling under my wheels.
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Old April 16th, 2015, 04:47 PM   #5146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNGL View Post
Some are even worse than a goat path .

Castile and Leon is the largest subnational division in Europe . I'll be entering this weekend, as I'll be doing this route: https://www.google.es/maps/dir/Huesc...d42.131845!3e0. Several roads and motorways I've never seen before will be falling under my wheels.
Are you not driving the short A11 stretch west of Soria? I'd be nice to have a full freeway from there to Aranda d'Oro, as it was discussed some pages a go I think.
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Old April 16th, 2015, 08:18 PM   #5147
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Aranda de Duero

Driving El Burgo de Osma bypass would be a huge detour for that route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobucci View Post
I saw some of your videos, and if Catalonian roads are somehow deficient, I don't know how to classify Brazilian ones. Perhaps a joke or something intended to be a road.

I think Spanish roads, in general, are among the best in Europe in terms of capacity and conservation. Spain's highway system is simply great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
In my opinion, main roads in Spain are generally good.

However, regional or country roads differ greatly from region to region. A few examples:

Extremadura (best roads) vs. Aragón (second to last): They are about the same size and population. Extremadura is the poorest Spanish region, while Aragón is slightly above the average. A forumer from Aragón posted ten regional roads (just one level below national roads) from his region which are badly mantained to some degree: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=5159

Castilla y León (6th region with the best roads) vs. La Rioja (the region with the worst roads): Castilla y León is bigger than Portugal but has less than a quarter of its population. La Rioja is the smallest region in mainland Spain and is more than twice as densely populated, yet our roads are worse.
The ones who did that study (Asociación Española de la Carretera) also recommended tolling all motorways some time ago:

http://www.motorpasion.com/industria...las-carreteras

In their website, you can see that the main Spanish construction companies (FCC, Ferrovial, Acciona, OHL, Dragados, etc) are the ones behind them:

http://www.aecarretera.com/quienes-s...patrocinadores

So I think the debate is settled -they're just lobbying to get more money from maintenance contracts. About the condition of Spanish roads, it's generally good. In the 1980s and 90s, roads were falling apart, with patches everywhere, grass growing between lanes and damage from accidents not being repaired. In the early 2000s, some first-generation autovías (which at that time were only 10 years old) looked -and felt- like they had been bombed. Things have slowly got better despite recession (the renewal of these early motorways, funded by shadow tolls, aided a bit), and now driving on Spanish roads spares no surprises for a Western European foreigner.
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Old April 17th, 2015, 08:48 AM   #5148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
Aranda de Duero

Driving El Burgo de Osma bypass would be a huge detour for that route.
That, and the fact I'm already detouring to Ariza makes impossible to me to drive the lone A-11 section. I would have gone directly to Calatayud on N-234 otherwise (another road I haven't been to yet). OTOH, I'll be driving the Agreda bypass, a lone A-15 section with N-122's kmposts. Its existence explains the gap in the A-15 planning map from Los Rabanos (South of Soria) to AP-68/AP-15 near Tudela.
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Old April 17th, 2015, 12:30 PM   #5149
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It was me who chose ten main regional roads in poor conditions.
In the other hand I have to say that sometimes it is a stretch that goes to the end of the side and with barely traffic (I wonder why they chose first class for them) and in addition, I can fin several examples where a stretch is horrible but joined to another perfect one (it is crazy, you cannot drive over 50 and later, no problems to remain 100).

It is a poorly used network due to large extension and few population. When they normally have a refurbishement, it will take longer to repair again... but few works can be done every year.

If we compare traffic Vs situation of roads, it will not be so bad, but looking to pictures, it is really horrible.
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Old April 17th, 2015, 09:54 PM   #5150
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I made a video of N-II through Monegros desert. This road is definitely not in very good condition . Truck share is 67% of a bare 8.000 vehicles a day, so this road feels very busy. Most truckers bypass parallel AP-2 toll motorway with N-II; the road is mostly flat and straight and crosses only one town, so they can also drive their 90 km/h top speed. Even with reductions in toll rates up to 75%, truckers still prefer the old road. This is going to be addressed soon, as the Government is passing a law that will ban trucks from roads with a parallel toll motorway in exchange for additional discounts on tolls (50%).



Monegros desert is quite unique in Western Europe. Some "Spaghetti Western" movies were filmed there. A big part of the area around N-II has been irrigated, but there are still vast extensions of dry, sparsely-populated steppes.

I also filmed A-2 in Lleida province and the short stretch around Fraga, which is also poorly maintained -it's very bumpy, despite having opened only 13 years ago. Fraga used to be in the headlines quite often due to trucks losing their brakes entering the town -which is in a deep valley- and crashing to some car or building at full speed. With the bypass this has been partly solved, because there are still trucks driving to downtown Fraga, and there are incidents every now and then.

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Old April 17th, 2015, 10:03 PM   #5151
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were there plans to extend A2 to Zaragoza, on the other side of the Ebro?
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Old April 17th, 2015, 10:15 PM   #5152
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Quote:
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were there plans to extend A2 to Zaragoza, on the other side of the Ebro?
There's already AP-2 between Zaragoza and Fraga, so it doesn't make much sense now that trucks will be banned on N-II. There were some plans -there was even a DIA (Declaración de Impacto Ambiental) that was passed. But I don't think they are pursuing this anymore. Even local authorities seem to have lost interest in that project, because diverting all truck traffic to AP-2 makes much more sense.
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Old April 17th, 2015, 10:17 PM   #5153
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Quote:
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There's already AP-2 between Zaragoza and Fraga, so it doesn't make much sense now that trucks will be banned on N-II. There were some plans -there was even a DIA (Declaración de Impacto Ambiental) that was passed. But I don't think they are pursuing this anymore. Even local authorities seem to have lost interest in that project, because diverting all truck traffic to AP-2 makes much more sense.
But wasn't the contruction of A2, A7 part of a plan to starve off toll concessionaires by building parallel "freedom from tolls" roads?
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Old April 17th, 2015, 10:26 PM   #5154
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At 2:18 in the first video, N-II just East of Bujaraloz there is a sign which is common in other countries (I saw loads of them in my recent trip to France) but ultra rare in Spain: https://www.google.es/maps/@41.49809...il5Q6yiImw!2e0
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Old April 17th, 2015, 10:29 PM   #5155
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But wasn't the contruction of A2, A7 part of a plan to starve off toll concessionaires by building parallel "freedom from tolls" roads?
I don't know what they intended with that. But bear in mind that toll concessionaires are participated by Spain's leading construction companies and banks, which are the most powerful lobby in the country -if they ever lose in the game, they will undoubtedly be compensated.
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Old April 17th, 2015, 11:14 PM   #5156
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Is Zaragoza actually enforcing that "30 limit maximum speed on right lane" thing?
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Old April 17th, 2015, 11:18 PM   #5157
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When have they built A2 between Cetina and Azteca? On Google Street View, it doesn't look like a narrow ROW (like the Despeñaderos area on A4 were), and some overpasses look modern. So why haven't they opted for more tunnels and less curves?
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Old April 17th, 2015, 11:21 PM   #5158
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According to my research with historic newspaper articles, A-2 Medinaceli - Calatayud opened to traffic in December 1990. But it is a long stretch (75 km) and may have opened in more fragments. Newspaper articles are not always accurate.
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Old April 17th, 2015, 11:58 PM   #5159
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Quote:
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When have they built A2 between Cetina and Azteca? On Google Street View, it doesn't look like a narrow ROW (like the Despeñaderos area on A4 were), and some overpasses look modern. So why haven't they opted for more tunnels and less curves?
Azteca? I didn't know we had a Mexican colony here (It's Ateca ). When I was a kid I liked seeing that area in a map of Aragon and finding there's Calatayud, then Ateca, then Ariza. Coincidentally the last one has spectacularly vaulted to the top of my mind lately, I went there back in December and I'm detouring this weekend just to get back there (and clinching some new roads). This means I'll be driving the section you said, and the following one to La Almunia which I also like.
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Old April 18th, 2015, 07:05 PM   #5160
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Quote:
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were there plans to extend A2 to Zaragoza, on the other side of the Ebro?
No, there aren't

IMO the easiest plan would be to untoll the AP-2 till booths linking AP-2 and N-II

It wouldn't be quite difficult

https://www.google.es/maps/place/507...df5decbaf351dd

Second exit would be cancelled (saving money because not maintaining an boothed exit) and all free traffic could go easily till the first booth but taking a link to the N-II

That would cost... more to the toll motorway rather than civil work.

Should they think to built a new lane (2x2 in the N-II developping an A-2) they will find a real problem here

In Villafranca de Ebro
https://www.google.es/maps/place/507...df5decbaf351dd

They could

1- Built a second lane but with a 100 km/h limit
2- Built a 2x2 southern current motorway (it will increase several km Zaragoza-Barcelona and more expensive)
3- Make free current tolled motorway


More... after Pina de Ebro I do not find reasons to build a 2x2 but making free the tolled motorway. There is no such traffic for two paralel motorways. Maybe on holidays but several days per year only.

If they untoll the motorway they could build an additional exit here
https://www.google.es/maps/place/225...e2e930db4e7369

This stretch is (to my best knowledge) the longest one in Europe between two exits (if you drive there, do not forget to take the correct exit or you will make 92 additional km!!!!)
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