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Old April 29th, 2015, 02:17 PM   #5181
arctic_carlos
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When fully completed, A-11 and A-15 in Soria province will get a considerable amount of traffic that now uses other routes. For instance all traffic Madrid - Pamplona or Zaragoza - Valladolid.

The same happens with A-21 - A-23 - A-22, that will be the shortest link between Barcelona and Pamplona, Bilbao and San Sebastián.

We're talking about long term projects that shouldn't be judged on the basis of short sections currently in service carrying few traffic, in my opinion.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 03:47 PM   #5182
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Quote:
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Which road are you referring to? The A-15 to Soria?
Well, for example... Of course a by-pass or a motorway in the near radius of such cities is OK, but then in the middle of nothing it doesn't just make sense. Somebody brought out here interchanges in Spain being built for villages of fewer than 50 people or completely dead...

Saving a few Kms from Barcelona to San Sebastian is no justify for a new motorway parallel to the already existing Autovia del Ebro, except building some new links maybe. Other countries in Europe solve congesting in such routes (though Autovia del Ebro nor AP-2 are not congested) building a third lane. Also, parallel motorways because one is tolled in the middle of fields is crazy. Of course I understand the concept on the coast and urban sprawl areas, but somewhere else it's crazy (let's take for example the famou A-2/AP-2-corridor).
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Old April 29th, 2015, 05:02 PM   #5183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
When fully completed, A-11 and A-15 in Soria province will get a considerable amount of traffic that now uses other routes.
Dream mode ON:

...for instances, for Porto-Barcelona travels!!

Dream mode OFF.


And probably, a more direct link from northen Portugal to France.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 05:11 PM   #5184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
Well, for example... Of course a by-pass or a motorway in the near radius of such cities is OK, but then in the middle of nothing it doesn't just make sense. Somebody brought out here interchanges in Spain being built for villages of fewer than 50 people or completely dead...

Saving a few Kms from Barcelona to San Sebastian is no justify for a new motorway parallel to the already existing Autovia del Ebro, except building some new links maybe. Other countries in Europe solve congesting in such routes (though Autovia del Ebro nor AP-2 are not congested) building a third lane. Also, parallel motorways because one is tolled in the middle of fields is crazy. Of course I understand the concept on the coast and urban sprawl areas, but somewhere else it's crazy (let's take for example the famou A-2/AP-2-corridor).


Figueruelas-Mallen in A-68 is as expensive (or cheaper) than M-12 for Madrid airport due to only a platform in 30 km and no special infrastuctures.
A-68 in Navarra is done.

Furthermore... I would link to AP-68 until the nearbies of Logroño. There is not enough traffic (in Tudela 50-50 direction Logroño or Pamplona)
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Old April 29th, 2015, 05:13 PM   #5185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pai nosso View Post
Dream mode ON:

...for instances, for Porto-Barcelona travels!!

Dream mode OFF.


And probably, a more direct link from northen Portugal to France.


You will see it... but it will take longer.

For instance you can use the motorway bypass in Aranda de Duero as you know.

It will take longer to enlarge the motorway but step by step it approach to a better link Porto-Barcelona.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 08:01 PM   #5186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
Well, for example... Of course a by-pass or a motorway in the near radius of such cities is OK, but then in the middle of nothing it doesn't just make sense. Somebody brought out here interchanges in Spain being built for villages of fewer than 50 people or completely dead...

Saving a few Kms from Barcelona to San Sebastian is no justify for a new motorway parallel to the already existing Autovia del Ebro, except building some new links maybe. Other countries in Europe solve congesting in such routes (though Autovia del Ebro nor AP-2 are not congested) building a third lane. Also, parallel motorways because one is tolled in the middle of fields is crazy. Of course I understand the concept on the coast and urban sprawl areas, but somewhere else it's crazy (let's take for example the famou A-2/AP-2-corridor).
For God's sake, do you only have one point about Spanish roads? You keep repeating it again and again.

A-2 and AP-2 in Catalonia follow different corridors and serve different cities. A-22/A-23/A-21 is meant to provide decent access to the ski resorts in the Aragón Pyrenees, because roads leading there are crap and carry over 20,000 vehicles per day in the winter season.

You don't seem to know a lot about Spain, and looking at a map and pointing stuff that looks wrong is not the right way to build yourself an opinion in the matter.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 08:10 PM   #5187
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For God's sake, do you only have one point about Spanish roads? You keep repeating it again and again.

A-2 and AP-2 in Catalonia follow different corridors and serve different cities. A-22/A-23/A-21 is meant to provide decent access to the ski resorts in the Aragón Pyrenees, because roads leading there are crap and carry over 20,000 vehicles per day in the winter season.

You don't seem to know a lot about Spain, and looking at a map and pointing stuff that looks wrong is not the right way to build yourself an opinion in the matter.
I lived there for 7 years going to a Spanish-language school y hablo sin acento el Español. I admire a lot of the work done on roads in Spain, but a few in remote zones of the northern mountain zone and in the Meseta just don't fit my mentality, when there are much more urgent actions to do in cities and they should be a high priority in road-building during these hard fiscal times.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 10:38 PM   #5188
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I agree with you to some extent, but I don't think Spanish cities need new motorways so urgently. OK, Sevilla needs the completion of SE-40 and Barcelona needs some missing links too. They are currently under construction and its completion, although delayed, is going to happen in the nest years.

But Madrid's network is huge. There are too many motorways there in fact. Look at the southeastern metropolitan area and you'll freak out. Empty toll motorways and even superfluous ring roads (M-45 and M-50), or motorways just going from one ring road to another in the middle of nowhere (M-31). However, it's weird that authorities never decided to complete the northern section of M-30.

Valencia has a decent motorway network. The same could be said of other important cities like Bilbao, Málaga, Zaragoza or Valladolid. Regarding the addition of more lanes to existing roads, a lot of work has been done, but sometimes, especially in urban areas, there is simply lack of space to add more lanes due to urbanism. Think for instance about Barcelona's Rondes (ring road). It's impossible to add more lanes in most parts of them, as it's a succession of tunnels in a consolidated urban area.

Furthermore, new motorway projects in "remote" zones are precisely contributing to create new corridors that will take a traffic from urban areas. The construction of A-21 + A-23 + A-21 in Aragon is not only justified by through traffic, but also because of the importance that tourism plays in that area and the need to end the isolation of some towns. Moreover, A-23 will be an important international corridor once finished, linking Zaragoza to France.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 11:03 PM   #5189
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I don't think M-45 or M-50 are superfluous. They each carry a decent amount of traffic. M-45 carries between 52,000 and 94,000 vehicles per day and M-50 carries 55,000 - 90,000 vehicles per day too.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 11:12 PM   #5190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RV View Post
I lived there for 7 years going to a Spanish-language school y hablo sin acento el Español. I admire a lot of the work done on roads in Spain, but a few in remote zones of the northern mountain zone and in the Meseta just don't fit my mentality, when there are much more urgent actions to do in cities and they should be a high priority in road-building during these hard fiscal times.
As you will know, one of the problems within Spanish territory management are differences between countryshide and cities. Apart of Madrid (Zaragoza, Valladolid and few cities more), you will find barely population inside the country. All of them is in the coast or not far from there.

It is not an infrastructure issue but also a social issue and sometimes there are territories where civil works are the only way to settle population there (little companies that will find the most competitive land to set up)

In the case of A-22, A-23 and A-21...

- A-23 is exactly part of an European corridor (E-07)
- It is the way to approach some shires (not to entry into mountains, it hasn't have any tunnel indeed, only to approach).
- Barcelona-anywhere in Navarra or Basque country is fastest with this way instead of AP-2 and AP-68 (even Barcelona-Bilbao will be 2 km less, for other corners of the territory quite less distance).
- We are talking about a long corridor where the biggest infrastructure is a 3 km tunnel (in 500ish km) and connects two well populated areas
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Old April 30th, 2015, 01:16 PM   #5191
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I didn't actually mean for example the extension of Madrid's network, just some quite cheap projects, as third lanes, capacity increasing on roads going to the city to be exact.

So in Madrid:

- Third lanes on A-3 to Arganda most urgently (up to 100,000 AADT on a 2+2 first-generation autovía, and later maybe to Tarancón
- Third lanes on A-41 to Toledo would come cheap and traffic increases constantly.
- Third lanes urgently to Navalcarnero on A-5 and later possibly to Talavera
- Fourth lanes should be considered on some sections of the A-1 and A-4. Furthermore, third lanes on A-1 should be extended to Cotos de Monterrey
- Extension of M-607 a few Kms, later maybe even to A-6
- Duplication of some very poor condition, high-traffic-level-roads around Madrid thus forming a kind of M-60 (actually I think they are working on this). Same on other roads of this kind.
- Some extension of M-501 and M-503 where it is necessary
- Consideration of making R-roads parallel to radial autovías thus easing the traffic on those; they would serve also regional traffic.

And then, some in urgent need that don't come cheap though: Completing M-30 and M-50.

The work that has been done on A-6 and A-2 is great.

It could be considered upgrading also N-320 to a high-level-route avoiding Madrid from A-2 to A-1.

In Barcelona, a B-40 would actually be necessary acting as the main connector between many above 100,000 inhabitant satellite towns.

Then you need A-7 between Valencia and Barcelona being duplicated, and of course main E-corridors with high truck traffic should be built, didn't opine like they shouldn't. Upgrading roads near Murcia or Granada for example, but it shouldn't be done like in Alicante (AP-7). I meant that some regional planners are getting quite greedy (motorways for olive pickers, AP-41, etc.).

Btw, I read something about upgrading projects on M-40. What are they doing exactly, if someone knows?

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Old April 30th, 2015, 02:09 PM   #5192
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I agree with the completion of M-30, but I don't think that a expensive tunnel like the proposed one is needed. I would make the substandard section across Barrio del Pilar as a full motorway in a trench. The only trouble is that I don't know is how deep is metro line 9 as it goes across that valley. About M-50 just leave as is, maybe extend it from A-1 to M-607, as tunneling below El Pardo would be also a big expense. Of course, one can let his imagination go wild like I did, I torn down half of Madrid to make way for a M-20 and a M-10, as well as rerouting A-1, A-2, A-3, A-4, A-42, A-5 and A-6 back to their original alingments and extending them to M-10 (At least I didn't turn Puerta del Sol into a massive motorway interchange) .
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Old April 30th, 2015, 02:19 PM   #5193
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IMO, for the M-30 it is enought to separate traffics and set a little tunnel in road crosses
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Old April 30th, 2015, 05:02 PM   #5194
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And while I'm at it, since the road that goes out from Zaragoza towards Madrid is named Autovía de Madrid, I turned it into an expressway , complete with two exits with adjusted A-2's exit numbers. Of course, this is only a crazy idea that came from my mind, but kmposts on A-2 really need to be adjusted as I found it is way shorter than signed. I measured it from Ariza all the way to Z-40 near Zaragoza (what I call the autobahnkreuz Rosales del Canal) and while 119 km are signed, I only got 113.2 with my car, meaning that there are 5.8 km missing.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 05:50 PM   #5195
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A good starting point for Madrid would be changing the current signs so that through traffic is encouraged to take M-50, M-45 and even M-40 instead of M-30.

For instance, when entering Madrid via A-1, at the junction with M-50 you find this sign: https://goo.gl/maps/8vTHH

Madrid is signed once in each sign, the airport is signed 3 times (!) and the road numbers are a mess, so the only real difference is "Zaragoza". The obvious consequence is that most traffic going to Valencia, Córdoba or Badajoz will never use the M-50.

If you are using the A-2, it's not better: https://goo.gl/maps/EB5yW . Only Zaragoza and Valencia are signed, apart from the road numbers, which are a bit useless if you don't really know how the Spanish road network is numbered.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 10:34 PM   #5196
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To my best knowledge, bypass trucks aren't allowed to entry beyond M-40... thus all signs accross M-40.

Furthermore, they were prepared when M30 (not finished yet) wasn't refurbished yet
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Old May 1st, 2015, 05:20 PM   #5197
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A new 304-meter bridge over Llobregat river opened to traffic yesterday in El Prat de Llobregat:





This long-awaited connection will provide a direct connection to Polígon Pratenc, an industrial park that had to be reached through Barcelona's Zona Franca, the mega industrial area next to the city's freight port.

There's more information on the details of the bridge in the official press release.

Google Maps
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Old May 1st, 2015, 07:25 PM   #5198
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Quote:
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I don't think M-45 or M-50 are superfluous. They each carry a decent amount of traffic. M-45 carries between 52,000 and 94,000 vehicles per day and M-50 carries 55,000 - 90,000 vehicles per day too.
I find the western part of M-45 (between M-40 in Leganés and A-4) useful, but its eastern part, between A-4 and M-50 (in San Fernando de Henares), could have been built as a sole motorway together with M-50.

Look at this image:

https://www.google.es/maps/@40.34875.../data=!3m1!1e3

Both motorways run parallel to each other for 15 km until they finally merge in San Fernando de Henares. It's a result of the Spanish property bubble between 1996 and 2008, when it was believed Madrid would grow until reaching M-50 or further beyond. All these areas between different motorways are not going to be developed in decades, as Spanish already has millions of empty housing.

Therefore I think it would have been enough with a single motorway (either M-45 or M-50) between San Fernando de Henares and the Manzanares river, to the west of which the current situation of having two different motorways, M-45 and M-50, is justified due to the existence of big cities like Móstoles, Leganés, Getafe, Fuenlabrada or Alcorcón.
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 02:49 PM   #5199
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That is an upgrade of the Sevilla-Huelva-road adding it a third lane near Sevilla. This is what Spain should do. Mountain roads between two 50,000-habitant-locations with no urban sprawl get billions, when city accesses lack of a few million funding in all the major cities to build an extra lane.
All the bridges in the photos and the singal of workings are because of the new ringroad, SE-40
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Old May 2nd, 2015, 05:40 PM   #5200
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I made a video of A-15 between Pamplona and San Sebastián. In my opinion, it's the most beautiful motorway in Spain. It travels through the Pyrenees, and although it doesn't reach a very high elevation, the landscapes that it offers are just breathtaking. It was also one of the most challenged road projects in Spanish history because initial environmental concerns ended up conjuring what then was the ghost of the region -terrorism.



I also recorded the Southern part of AP-15 so that you can compare how diverse the landscape of Navarra is. AP-15 passes next to Bardenas Reales natural park, which is a desert -located just 200 kilometers away from the wet, green Pyrenees.

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