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Old May 9th, 2015, 08:04 PM   #5221
verreme
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How transited is this border-following road, especially in Extremadura? Of course, heavy truck traffic and even a little heavy ADT at all during all the road makes for me a need for a motorway.
Well thanks for your approval. We were so anxious to know your veredict about this new road

According to 2013 data from Ministerio de Fomento, AADT in A-66 along Extremadura ranges from 8.000 (in the border with Salamanca province) to 18.000 South of Mérida. Some sections North of Salamanca carry barely more than 7.000 vehicles per day, but this is likely to change after the opening of the remaining stretch -currently, A-66 only leads to Zamora, which is a small town, and long-distance traffic chooses other routes.

Ruta de la Plata used to be one of Spain's more dangerous roads before A-66 opened. Most of it were endless straights packed with traffic.
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Old May 9th, 2015, 08:11 PM   #5222
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I looked into Spanish toll road prices, but they are quite expensive. It's been years since I've driven a toll road in Spain, but I don't recall them being so expensive. A 320 kilometer trip from Barcelona to Sagunt costs € 36.55 in tolls.

That's € 0.11 per kilometer for a 'legacy motorway' (i.e. a motorway whose initial construction cost has been paid off long ago) in relatively easy terrain. This is even more expensive than most older French toll roads which are usually around € 0.08 - 0.09 per kilometer, not to mention older Italian toll roads which charge around € 0.06 - 0.07 per kilometer.
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Old May 9th, 2015, 10:45 PM   #5223
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Now you know why I call them 'troll' roads.
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Old May 9th, 2015, 10:46 PM   #5224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I looked into Spanish toll road prices, but they are quite expensive. It's been years since I've driven a toll road in Spain, but I don't recall them being so expensive. A 320 kilometer trip from Barcelona to Sagunt costs € 36.55 in tolls.

That's € 0.11 per kilometer for a 'legacy motorway' (i.e. a motorway whose initial construction cost has been paid off long ago) in relatively easy terrain. This is even more expensive than most older French toll roads which are usually around € 0.08 - 0.09 per kilometer, not to mention older Italian toll roads which charge around € 0.06 - 0.07 per kilometer.
Widenings on AP-7 between Tarragona and France were expensive and may justify keeping the tolls, but the rest of the motorway to Valencia is pretty much as it was in the 1970s -tolls remain there because the concessionaires (owned by Spanish banks) are constantly lobbying for them not to be removed, and/or for tolls to be introduced in other roads. I guess it's the same issue in France.
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Old May 10th, 2015, 02:00 AM   #5225
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How transited is this border-following road, especially in Extremadura? Of course, heavy truck traffic and even a little heavy ADT at all during all the road makes for me a need for a motorway.
Look at Madrid-Sevilla and it is shortest and fastest via Merida rather tha directly A4
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Old May 10th, 2015, 07:33 PM   #5226
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Well thanks for your approval. We were so anxious to know your veredict about this new road

According to 2013 data from Ministerio de Fomento, AADT in A-66 along Extremadura ranges from 8.000 (in the border with Salamanca province) to 18.000 South of Mérida. Some sections North of Salamanca carry barely more than 7.000 vehicles per day, but this is likely to change after the opening of the remaining stretch -currently, A-66 only leads to Zamora, which is a small town, and long-distance traffic chooses other routes.

Ruta de la Plata used to be one of Spain's more dangerous roads before A-66 opened. Most of it were endless straights packed with traffic.
Cmon Hermano I'm always approval of roads that are in need to improve. It's just that there are huge investings made and money spent on roads like CM-whatsoever etc, but meanwhile urban networks, which improvement (like an extra-lane) often come cheap, are neglected when huge amounts of EU-money is wasted on some routes that are not needed. As I see, this road's traffic amount is steady all along the road and it is needed, but I still see many urban roads as a priority. You can compare in Spain about this with China; Beijing rings are outdated, but Outer Mongolia gets high-speed-motorways across mountains and deserts with even no towns to by-pass. In this economic situation I think that the most in-need-roads around the cities should and could be upgraded first. As I understand, "Via de la Plata" is economically an important route and so comes into priority works to do along with big-city-arteries.

By the way, a toll actually breaks the idea of a motorway obligating traffic to stop. If it can't be done by microchips or whatever, it shouldn't be; I've numerously seen even twice a hundred-kilometer-long queues around Barcelona because of tolls.
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Old May 10th, 2015, 07:43 PM   #5227
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I think that the most in-need-roads around the cities should and could be upgraded first.
Which are usually more expensive and more disputed...... On the other hand, roads "in the middle of nowhere" can develop regions which could also reduce urbanization a little bit......
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old May 10th, 2015, 09:29 PM   #5228
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I think we can settle this debate by concluding that there are strong arguments in favour of both solutions (spending money in upgrading urban motorways vs building new rural corridors) and both of them are valid.
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Old May 10th, 2015, 09:41 PM   #5229
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The projected cost to reconstruct 16 kilometers of N-232 to A-68 west of Zaragoza (near Gallur), including 4 new interchanges, is only € 3.5 million per kilometer. That's mind-boggling low.
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Old May 10th, 2015, 11:39 PM   #5230
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Partially reason is because first platform is already built. It is to pass from a 1+1 to a 2x2 only... and starting 20 years ago, all bridges where built to have a further 2x2 someday

The stretch should be this one

https://www.google.es/maps/dir/41.85...9!2d41.7658569

And I point "THIS ONE" because I have read several news and releases and towns, distances, etc... do not match


Just look at ahead this bridge

https://www.google.es/maps/@41.77744...r8diplFy6g!2e0

It was built a long time ago but as anyone can guess... nothing must be done in the bridge for a 2x2

by the way, in the left side of the picture you will approach to the main safety and car accidents research centre in Spain. It is located... just in front of one of the most dangerous roads. As it is located in my region, it is very often to hear their counsils and little interviews in local radios
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Old May 11th, 2015, 12:51 AM   #5231
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Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I looked into Spanish toll road prices, but they are quite expensive. It's been years since I've driven a toll road in Spain, but I don't recall them being so expensive. A 320 kilometer trip from Barcelona to Sagunt costs € 36.55 in tolls.
One of the worst offenders is the AP-7 between Malaga and Gibraltar. Malaga-Marbella in summer is 7.45 Euro for 26km of motorway. Even the winter rates are still horrible - 4.60 Euro. They even attempt to portray the entire Malaga-Marbella section as being tolled, when in reality, the AP-7 shares the route with the A-7 between Malaga and Fuengirola and is toll free. Likewise, the Marbella bypass is also toll free.

Then there's the joke of Malaga-Calahonda, which is actually Fuengirola-Calahonda in reality. Barely 12km of motorway for 2.85 Euro (winter) / 4.65 Euro (summer). Fair enough, Fuengirola-Marbella on the A-7 in summer is unbearably bad, but for 10 months of the year, it's quite reasonable.

A curious thing about the A-7 and AP-7 on the Costa Del Sol is that while the A-7 is quite acceptable between Malaga and Estepona (where the AP-7 ends) - the new A-7 between Estepona and San Roque is characterised by a series of roundabouts that don't actually appear to serve anything.

Elsewhere, the AP-1 between Burgos and Vitoria is also ridiculously expensive - 12.10 EUR for 85km.

But I suppose the expense of many Spanish motorways is countered by the fact that there's such an excellent network of toll-free roads too. Unless I'm wrong, it's possible to do Irun-Algeciras on free autovias for almost the entire distance, except 85km of AP-7 and a little section of AP-68 at the border.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 01:10 AM   #5232
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Carretero (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...postcount=1356)

posted the price of motorway per km


They are, almost of them, 0,10-0,12 eur/km except those ones with a lot of tunnels

You have two tables in page 37 and 38, for State tolled motorways and regional tolled motorways.

There are someones that have different prices depending on time, date, etc... and they have taken an average

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM.CP.We...x?idpub=ICW007



What it is known is that the most expensive toll is this single tunnel in the Majorca island.

https://www.google.es/maps/@39.71742...sR4OCLpMNA!2e0


Residents in the island pay quite less but any visitor will pay a great amount.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 09:02 PM   #5233
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A-66



En servicio toda la autovía Ruta de la Plata A-66 (Gijón-Sevilla) con la apertura mañana del último tramo entre Benavente y Zamora

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_.../150511-03.htm

The last missing link of A-66 opens to traffic tomorrow!
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Old May 11th, 2015, 09:03 PM   #5234
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What is the website for seeing prices of Spanish toll roads and even better is there some way to judge whether it's worth paying it or the free road is just as good? Very soon I'll be in Andalusia and our approximate route is Sevilla-Cadiz-Gibraltar then more or less along the coast to Sierra Nevada followed by Granada and back to Sevilla. We won't be in any hurry, but sitting in endless traffic jams is also not funny...

Also any of you know which is the prettiest road for crossing the mountains from the coast to Granada? It doesn't need to be fast as we have an entire day to do it.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 09:35 PM   #5235
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What is the website for seeing prices of Spanish toll roads and even better is there some way to judge whether it's worth paying it or the free road is just as good? Very soon I'll be in Andalusia and our approximate route is Sevilla-Cadiz-Gibraltar then more or less along the coast to Sierra Nevada followed by Granada and back to Sevilla. We won't be in any hurry, but sitting in endless traffic jams is also not funny...

Also any of you know which is the prettiest road for crossing the mountains from the coast to Granada? It doesn't need to be fast as we have an entire day to do it.
I normally use either Guía Repsol (http://www.guiarepsol.com/en/map/) or ViaMichelin (http://www.viamichelin.com/). The first one seems to be more up-to-date.
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Old May 11th, 2015, 10:07 PM   #5236
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800 kilometers of goodness It's mindboggling how they built this motorway at € 3.6 million per kilometer.

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Old May 12th, 2015, 12:22 AM   #5237
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What is the website for seeing prices of Spanish toll roads and even better is there some way to judge whether it's worth paying it or the free road is just as good? Very soon I'll be in Andalusia and our approximate route is Sevilla-Cadiz-Gibraltar then more or less along the coast to Sierra Nevada followed by Granada and back to Sevilla. We won't be in any hurry, but sitting in endless traffic jams is also not funny...

Also any of you know which is the prettiest road for crossing the mountains from the coast to Granada? It doesn't need to be fast as we have an entire day to do it.
There was a webpage of Tolled motorway assotiation but nowadays it is a mess.

Ask for anyone and I'll try to search for it
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Old May 12th, 2015, 11:44 AM   #5238
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800 kilometers of goodness It's mindboggling how they built this motorway at € 3.6 million per kilometer.

It is indeed. What is the explanation? Has anyone seen the cost of a Spanish divided into various cost items (detailed design, cost of land, bridges, earthwork, surfacing etc.). From my point of view it is hard to understand why a motorway in Central Jutland (Denmark) - or elsewhere in Europe - with relatively low population density, flat land with no eartwork or bridges to mention, should cost 3 times as much perkilometer.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 11:55 AM   #5239
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"cityland" is not cheap at all in Spain but countryland is terribly cheap.

As an example, for High speed rails, they have changed projects only to avoid costs approaching to cities because "in the middle of nowhere" cost is not so high at all
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Old May 12th, 2015, 06:02 PM   #5240
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I don't know the numbers for the A-66, but the cost for the A-12 between Hormilla and Hervías in La Rioja was 44.35 millions, of which 36.71 (83%) were dedicated to the works (structures, earthmoving, etc). The rest (7.64, or the 17%) were dedicated to the design, expropiation and technical control of the works.

It was a 11.1 km long stretch with three junctions. That makes about 4 million/km.
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