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Old May 12th, 2015, 09:25 PM   #5241
verreme
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikolaj View Post
It is indeed. What is the explanation? Has anyone seen the cost of a Spanish divided into various cost items (detailed design, cost of land, bridges, earthwork, surfacing etc.). From my point of view it is hard to understand why a motorway in Central Jutland (Denmark) - or elsewhere in Europe - with relatively low population density, flat land with no eartwork or bridges to mention, should cost 3 times as much perkilometer.
Valueless land is the explanation. Spain has a lot of unproductive land that's worth nothing, a consequence of bad land distribution and management over the centuries. Motorways through more populated areas are way more expensive.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 09:39 PM   #5242
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Valueless land is the explanation. Spain has a lot of unproductive land that's worth nothing, a consequence of bad land distribution and management over the centuries. Motorways through more populated areas are way more expensive.
Many European countries have construction costs (net of land acquisition) that are still much more expensive than Spain.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 09:43 PM   #5243
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There aren't many rivers on the Meseta. The 49 kilometer section of A-66 has only one notable bridge (apart from overpasses and underpasses).

A simple motorway exit in the Netherlands would usually cost at least € 10 million, more if it is a complex situation. In Spain they manage to do that at a much lower cost. The N-232 conversion into A-68 includes 4 new interchanges (5 in total) over a distance of 16 kilometers. And the cost per kilometer is only € 3.5 million.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 09:53 PM   #5244
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Salaries in Spain are also much lower than in The Netherlands.

And I don't know the details of it, but I suspect that tender procedures are also simpler.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:02 PM   #5245
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What is the website for seeing prices of Spanish toll roads and even better is there some way to judge whether it's worth paying it or the free road is just as good? Very soon I'll be in Andalusia and our approximate route is Sevilla-Cadiz-Gibraltar then more or less along the coast to Sierra Nevada followed by Granada and back to Sevilla. We won't be in any hurry, but sitting in endless traffic jams is also not funny...

Also any of you know which is the prettiest road for crossing the mountains from the coast to Granada? It doesn't need to be fast as we have an entire day to do it.
The AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz isn't expensive, I think it's only 7.25 Euro. From Cadiz to Gibraltar is toll free on the A-48. Gibraltar to Malaga - you shouldn't have any issue with traffic jams on the A-7 as opposed to AP-7, and you'll see far more of the development of the Costa Del Sol along the A-7. You bypass Estepona, Marbella and Fuengirola/Torremolinos/Malaga on free bypasses anyway, so there's not much advantage taking the AP-7.

After that, I strongly recommend doing the A-7 as far as Motril and then A-44 to Granada. The views along the A-7 are great, and the A-44 is jawdropping in some areas, especially once the Sierra Nevada comes into sight. In comparison, the A-45/A-92 route is quite dull and tedious, especially the A-92.

Do you have only one day to go from Gibraltar to Granada?
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:24 PM   #5246
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The AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz isn't expensive, I think it's only 7.25 Euro.
A portion of AP-4 is in fact untolled. The toll segment doesn't begin until Jerez-Norte (as seen from Cádiz).
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:40 PM   #5247
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A portion of AP-4 is in fact untolled. The toll segment doesn't begin until Jerez-Norte (as seen from Cádiz).
It's astounding how many sections of motorway are actually untolled in Spain - when you look at the map, there's no reason for the AP-4 to be untolled between Jerez-Norte and Cadiz.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #5248
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There was a toll plaza just south of Jerez-Sur. It was dismantled in 2005 or 2006.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 10:56 PM   #5249
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From Cadiz to Gibraltar is toll free on the A-48.
Not yet. A-48 finishes just north of Vejer de la Frontera, and A-7 begins in Algeciras. This means there is still no motorway in a big part of the road between Cádiz and Gibraltar and you would have to use the old N-340,

However, A-381, the motorway between Jerez de la Frontera and Algeciras is a good alternative. It doesn't follow the coast (so you can't spot Africa as from N-340) but it's faster.

In any event, if you are not in a hurry and it's not peak summer season, N-340 is OK and you get nice views.
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Old May 12th, 2015, 11:09 PM   #5250
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The AP-4 from Seville to Cadiz isn't expensive, I think it's only 7.25 Euro. From Cadiz to Gibraltar is toll free on the A-48. Gibraltar to Malaga - you shouldn't have any issue with traffic jams on the A-7 as opposed to AP-7, and you'll see far more of the development of the Costa Del Sol along the A-7. You bypass Estepona, Marbella and Fuengirola/Torremolinos/Malaga on free bypasses anyway, so there's not much advantage taking the AP-7.

After that, I strongly recommend doing the A-7 as far as Motril and then A-44 to Granada. The views along the A-7 are great, and the A-44 is jawdropping in some areas, especially once the Sierra Nevada comes into sight. In comparison, the A-45/A-92 route is quite dull and tedious, especially the A-92.
Thanks a lot and also to others who provided information earlier.

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Do you have only one day to go from Gibraltar to Granada?
No, we'll have two full days to go from Estepona to Granada and since we are staying overnight in Almunecar (close to Motril) A-45/A-92 route would be unsuitable anyway. What I was wondering is if it would be worth instead of taking A-44 directly to Granada going instead via some of the local roads. A-347/A-337 maybe or A-348/A-337 perhaps?
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Old May 13th, 2015, 01:07 AM   #5251
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You can do A-4132 from Orjiva to Trevelez. Follow GR-421 and A-4130 until you link with A-337 in Laroles. Follow A-337 crossing "la ragua" mountain pass and end in the A-92 in La Calahorra (there is an interesting castle there). Follow A-92 to Guadix and Granada.

Is the same that A-348 and A-337 you has asked, but A-348 is in the valley, and A-4132 is in the mountain. Those villages are known as the "Alpujarras".

When you are arriving Granada take the exit 253. You will enter following the old road and the view of Granada is the best. This road has very sharp turns even when you are in the city.

From what i remember last time i took A-4132 in 2008, this is a very narrow mountain road with dangerous turns and you can't really get speed, but the view is beautiful.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 01:23 AM   #5252
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Many European countries have construction costs (net of land acquisition) that are still much more expensive than Spain.
ManyMost European countries. The Iberian peninsula has a fantastic Motorway network as a consequence of the overall cost effectiveness of the construction costs.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 10:35 AM   #5253
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Even in Poland the average construction cost is about twice that of Spain. Most of their projects are in the € 7 - 10 million per kilometer range for rural motorways.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 12:49 PM   #5254
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Are there stretches of autovía in Spain with long distances between gas stations? I've been browsing on Google Earth along A-7 and it seems that all gas stations are near an exit. But I can imagine some newer stretches like A-66 which were built less than 10 years ago may have fewer gas stations.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 01:19 PM   #5255
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That's a good question

Should it be a tolled motorway, by law they must assure one petrol station every 30 km or so (and every 60 km or so opened 24/7)

For new free motorways, starting on 1991, they decided not to built any new one but to use current infrastructures... but sometimes petrol station can be quite near of the motorway, othertimes you may get into a town just for fill fuel.
Anyway, in several pannels it is pointed where you have a petrol station and sometimes the schedule (24h or maybe less opening). What they do not say is if you just may go besides the motorway or may go ahead for a long time.

In some trips where I do know stations, I obviously choose those ones easy to access from motorway and avoid those which are quite far.


Several years after first free motorways where opened some stations anywhere located, found that building a new station besides the motorway they will terribly increase incomings... and they were right!!

By law they couldn't ask for a new exit for a private station... but they could choose any exit for a little road and 100 m away or less, set the station. The started to built new ones which are quite more comfortable if you are travelling (and I guess they will have more incomings).

Just only in case of very high traffic I remember to let exits only for private stations but there aren't many in Spain.


this is, I guess that A-66 where you say will have no stations but they will have pointed where you can find one of them.

It is matter of time to see how stations move to the nearbies of the motorway
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Old May 13th, 2015, 01:44 PM   #5256
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I don't know the numbers for the A-66, but the cost for the A-12 between Hormilla and Hervías in La Rioja was 44.35 millions, of which 36.71 (83%) were dedicated to the works (structures, earthmoving, etc). The rest (7.64, or the 17%) were dedicated to the design, expropiation and technical control of the works.

It was a 11.1 km long stretch with three junctions. That makes about 4 million/km.
Based on Highway 89's cost break-down we can conclude, that cheap land in Spain is not the reason for the low cost. And adding the cost of motorway construction in Poland, it can further be concluded that low wages isn't a good explanation either. As Chris mentions the low number of overpasses and bridges can be part of the explanation, but that situation is not that different from a number of other countries/regions (i.e. Central Jutland). I can only conclude that Spain must have a highly competitive construction market, and the Spoanish contractors must have come up with some very cost efficient methods. The good question - with the EU internal market and EU tendering of projects - why isn't that reflected in road construction in other EU countries?
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Old May 13th, 2015, 02:20 PM   #5257
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Are there stretches of autovía in Spain with long distances between gas stations? I've been browsing on Google Earth along A-7 and it seems that all gas stations are near an exit. But I can imagine some newer stretches like A-66 which were built less than 10 years ago may have fewer gas stations.
Most new motorways follow an old national road where you can find a gas station. It isn't very convenient, since you have to exit the motorway, follow the old national road for maybe a kilometer to the gas station, fill the tank, and then go back to the motorway.

This map shows the location of most, if not all, gas stations (check the box that says "Gasolineras"): http://mapas.race.es/index.html

For instance, the whole A-58 between Trujillo and Cáceres has only one gas station, which is actually on the old N-521 near a village called Sierra de Fuentes, 43 km far from Trujillo.

Another long stretch I've found is the A-40 between Carrascosa del Campo and Chillarón de Cuenca, almost 50 km without a single gas station.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 08:40 PM   #5258
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this is, I guess that A-66 where you say will have no stations but they will have pointed where you can find one of them.
Not exactly. The new 49 km section of A-66 has been built by some private companies as a concession. This concession also includes the operation of two service areas (one for each carriageway), which of course have gas stations.

"Este tramo de autovía cuenta con 3 áreas de descanso, 2 áreas de servicio con zonas de explotación comercial y 9 enlaces que permitirán el acceso a las localidades y el viario del entorno, de Norte a Sur: Castrogonzalo, conexión de la nueva autovía A-66 con la autovía A-6, Santovenia - Villaveza, Santovenia, conexión con la carretera ZA-123, Riego del Camino, Fontanillas, conexión con las carreteras N-630 - N631 y Montamarta."

http://www.fomento.gob.es/MFOM/LANG_.../150511-03.htm

I admit it is not the most usual situation in new Spanish motorways (without tolls), but this section of A-66 is somehow peculiar.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 10:26 PM   #5259
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Based on Highway 89's cost break-down we can conclude, that cheap land in Spain is not the reason for the low cost. And adding the cost of motorway construction in Poland, it can further be concluded that low wages isn't a good explanation either. As Chris mentions the low number of overpasses and bridges can be part of the explanation, but that situation is not that different from a number of other countries/regions (i.e. Central Jutland). I can only conclude that Spain must have a highly competitive construction market, and the Spoanish contractors must have come up with some very cost efficient methods. The good question - with the EU internal market and EU tendering of projects - why isn't that reflected in road construction in other EU countries?
Maybe it's not just because one thing or another, but because the sum of them all . We have listed several factors, and each of them adds its grain of salt.
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Old May 13th, 2015, 11:25 PM   #5260
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I was browsing through Street View. I noticed that Alicante is not signed via A-7 via Alcoy, but via A-35 to La Font de la Figuera. In fact, A-7 is not signed by that number at all near Játiva. This street view image was captured half a year after the last link of A-7 opened to traffic near Alcoy.

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