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Old January 4th, 2016, 12:37 PM   #5921
ChrisZwolle
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Spain also has a substantially larger area than Germany, the difference is some 150.000 km².

Spain has approximately the same land area as Germany + Austria + Switzerland + the Netherlands. It is often underrated how big Spain actually is by European standards. It also has many population centers spread out across the country, separated by vast sparsely populated rural areas, which demands many different motorway routes, unlike the UK or Italy where a large share of population is served by just 4 or 5 motorways.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 04:50 PM   #5922
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Quote:
Originally Posted by How Nice View Post
Is the RM1 stopping at this AP37 and MU30?
Bloody hell. Whats the difference between RM and MU
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Old January 4th, 2016, 05:11 PM   #5923
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RM = Motorway built by the regional government of Murcia.

MU = Urban motorway (i.e. Urban Access) built by the Spanish government in Murcia.

I admit the numbering of urban motorways built by the Spanish government can be quite confusing, especially for foreigners who are not used to the traditional abbreviations used for each Spanish provincial capital.

But if we had to use a A-XX number for each urban access built in Spain by the Spanish government, we would have already run out of A-XX numbers...

What's totally a mess is the regional numbering of motorways. While some regions such as Galicia, Asturias or Castilla-La Mancha have specific numberings for motorways, others such as Catalonia, Madrid or Andalusia do not make a difference between numbering of conventional roads and motorways.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 05:34 PM   #5924
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Giving every motorway an A-number would result in a large volume of 3-digit numbers.

Spain is a large country. There are many prefixes, but on a typical 2 hour drive you won't see most of them. If you drive around in Andalucía you won't have to care about AS-I, ARA-A1 or GI-20 somewhere up north.

It looks messy but at least there is a system behind it. The same goes for the color of road numbers. Though you can argue about how much added value it has for the average motorist.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 05:57 PM   #5925
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I actually like the colo(u)r of road numbers, as it says the relative importance of that road. Although they don't say anything about the shape of the road, I've found national roads that resembled goat paths (N-260 through the Ventamillo gorge and between the Prime Meridian and Fiscal) and local roads that are up to current standards. And signage in the later can vary from fully signed (What I found in Soria province) to none at all (Aragon, though I managed to find a fully signed provincial road in western Zaragoza province).
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Old January 4th, 2016, 07:12 PM   #5926
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The big issue with the colour of road numbers is that some autovia are orange (and some green? and there's the N-I in the Basque country that is really A-1 but with the provincial government refusing to renumber) because the state is proud to highlight that this isn't a federal motorway.

Add in some roundabout infested roads that are somehow federal autovia (albeit urban ones).

Of course, about 98% of roads with blue cartouches / autovia have the correct color. And almost all have a sensible number if you accept the system Spain uses (N-1 in Basque country, and A92N in Andulucia (should be A91) are two stand out numbers that ought be different).
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Old January 4th, 2016, 07:30 PM   #5927
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For all those who wonder what the differences between Autopistas and Autovías are, I've made this table.

The first time that a law included the concept "Autovía", AFAIK, was in 1974. Back then, the definition was quite different from the current one.

The first column translates as follows:
1) Exclusive for motor vehicles
2) Separated carriageways
3) No access to adjacent premises
4) No at-grade intersections



limitados means that accesses to adjacent premises are allowed but only in special cases. The Spanish law makes a difference between limitación total de accesos (i.e. no access at all - Autopistas) and limitación de accesos (i.e. some acess might be allowed - Autovías).

So, in 1978 an Autovía could be a single-carriageway road with at-grade intersections, as long as it was completely fenced and limited to motor vehicles only

Keep in mind, however, that those are the minimun requirements. In fact most, if not all, modern Autovías (those built or refurbished in the last 20 years) meet all the requirements for Autopistas, as they have been built with the same standards and have specific signs banning non-motorized traffic.


For further information, you can refer to this post I've written (in Spanish): http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=152
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Old January 4th, 2016, 07:49 PM   #5928
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It appears that most autovías also ban cyclists. On my 4000 kilometer trip through Spain last summer I've only seen a cyclist on the autovía just once.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:01 PM   #5929
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Nowadays I really cannot answer you because nightmare of rules...

I remember driving on a free motorway which was partially built from a first carriage... but there was always a small paralel road or path in the surroundings for bikes.

In one mountain pass there was no other option. Any bike (and country machine and so on) had to take motorway for several kilometres.

Speed was set at 100 km/h (or 90???) there
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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:12 PM   #5930
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
The big issue with the colour of road numbers is that some autovia are orange (and some green? and there's the N-I in the Basque country that is really A-1 but with the provincial government refusing to renumber) because the state is proud to highlight that this isn't a federal motorway.
That's indeed the biggest problem the Spanish numbering system has. What are the colours for if they are not respected?

There are even yellow-coloured Autovías in the Seville metro area. Andalusia keeps the colours reserved for regional/provincial/local roads (i.e. orange/green/yellow) no matter whether or not they're motorways. At the same time, there are some C-XX regional roads in Catalonia that have a red number because they were national roads in the past.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Add in some roundabout infested roads that are somehow federal autovia (albeit urban ones)
Not all XX-NN roads are Autovías. The two-letter city codes only mean "entorno urbano", i.e. urban environment, regardless of their characteristics. A good example of this is the SG-20 in Segovia, which is a single-carriageway expressway, and it's got a red colour.

There might be some blue-colored non-Autovías (I only know of the PA-30 in Pamplona), but they can't be considered Autovías because they lack this sign:


Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Of course, about 98% of roads with blue cartouches / autovia have the correct color. And almost all have a sensible number if you accept the system Spain uses (N-1 in Basque country, and A92N in Andulucia (should be A91) are two stand out numbers that ought be different).
Actually, the real reason not to renumber N-I in Gipuzkoa is that they want traffic to take AP-1 instead. They even changed some signs from blue to white background. Keep in mind that, unlike the rest of the tolled motorways in Spain, the AP-1 was actually built with Basque taxpayer's money via the provincial chartered governments of Álava/Araba (Arabat) and Gipuzkoa (Bidegi). Forecasts failed as regards AADT and therefore income/profitability, so in order to get some money they try to detour drivers towards the AP-1. The same kind of procedure was followed in the case of the AP-8 bypass of Bilbao (Interbiak), and the same result was obtained.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
It appears that most autovías also ban cyclists. On my 4000 kilometer trip through Spain last summer I've only seen a cyclist on the autovía just once.
Yeah, that's what I was referring to when I said that most Autovías have specific signs banning non-motorized traffic
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Old January 4th, 2016, 08:31 PM   #5931
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C-XX roads in Catalonia have either red numbers (conventional roads) or blue numbers (both toll and non-toll motorways).

The main problem in my opinion is that a road gets the same number regardless of its condition. For instance, C-16 (Barcelona - France via Puigcerdà) begins as a tolled conventional road (Vallvidrera tunnel), then becomes a toll motorway (Sant Cugat - Manresa), then a non-toll motorway (Manresa - Berga), then a non-toll conventional road (Berga - Guardiola de Berguedà), afterwards a tolled conventional road (Cadí tunnel), and finally a non-toll conventional road up to the French border.

I prefer a system where motorways keep a completely different numbering, even if it doesn't differentiate between toll and non-toll motorways.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 09:24 PM   #5932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by verreme View Post
According to the U/C motorways thread, Spain opened an amazing 300.3 kilometers of motorway in 2015.
That would bring the 31/12/2015 motorway length of Spain to 15.348 km, according to this + 300 km.
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Old January 4th, 2016, 10:56 PM   #5933
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Bloody hell. Whats the difference between RM and MU
Thanks, I was also totally confused yesterday but didn't dare asking that .

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
There are two different projects:

Arco Noroeste (Northwest Arch) is the 22.1km road whose project has just been approved. It will be a motorway connecting A-30 north of Murcia with A-7 west of Murcia.

Arco Norte (North Arch) is th 13km road drawn in the map you've linked. It will be a kind of second by-pass for A-7 north of Murcia, connecting A-7 west of Murcia with A-7 east of Murcia, further from the city than the current alignment of A-7 (which is completely surrounded by shopping malls, a football stadium and a university campus).

In the map provided in the official press release you can see both projects: http://www.fomento.gob.es/NR/rdonlyr...roesteMurc.pdf

Regarding its numbering, I don't really know, but in my opinion it would be quite useful to number "Arco Noroeste" A-30 (as well as the current MU-30 and MU-31 motorways) leaving MU-30 for the current alignment of A-30 close to the city center, and to number "Arco Norte" A-7, leaving its current alignment as MU-30.

https://www.google.es/maps/@37.9873716,-1.139865,12z
Thanks. I wondered about the "yellow" road yesterday If "Arco Noroeste" would be A-30, it's built by the Spanish government . Would that result in dedicating the existing A-30 to MU-xx?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
RM = Motorway built by the regional government of Murcia.
MU = Urban motorway (i.e. Urban Access) built by the Spanish government in Murcia.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arctic_carlos View Post
AP-37 is a projected toll motorway between Zeneta (Murcia) and AP-7 in Catral. It's a result of the Spanish real estate bubble and it has zero chances of being built right now. On the contrary, A-7 will be widened to 2x3 between Murcia and Crevillente.

In the future, RM-1 will be extended to A-7 in Santomera. At the moment, only MU-30 is being extended to the future junction with RM-1 (the so-called Autovía del Reguerón in the press release). In this map you can see how the future ring road of Murcia will look like: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...lano_MU-30.png
Is there any estimated time schedule for M-30 and RM-1 extension or are both just wishful thinking? The eastern part of M-30 is shown "u/c" on OSM.............. Edit: Never mind, I read the other post now. I understand now why I couldn't find MU30 on my list 20 minutes ago.......
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Which new motorways are currently under construction?
Which new motorways will be opened next?

See 'New motorway projects' thread

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Old January 5th, 2016, 12:09 AM   #5934
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Don't worry, I also spent a long time trying to understand the mess of new motorways around Murcia.

Yes, "Arco Noroeste" is a project of the Spanish government (as well as "Arco Norte" and the u/c section of MU-30 between Beniaján and Zeneta - the so-called "Autovía del Reguerón"). The extension of RM-1 from Zeneta to Santomera ("Autovía del Bancal") should be a project of the Murcian regional government, but that's not clear right now. Maybe the Spanish government will be in charge of that project, who knows.

Regarding the future numbering of "Arco Noroeste", I'm not sure, I just made an assumption taking into account similar cases (A-7 in Málaga and AP-8 in San Sebastián), where after the opening of a newer outer bypass motorway, the new one got the long-distance numbering (A-XX) while the old one changed from A-XX to an urban numbering (MA-20 and GI-20 respectively). We can expect something similar happening in Granada once the outer bypass of A-44 is finished. As the main purpose of "Arco Noroeste" is to divert long-distance traffic out of the current A-30, I imagined something similar would happen there.
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Old January 5th, 2016, 03:17 AM   #5935
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
The big issue with the colour of road numbers is that some autovia are orange (and some green? and there's the N-I in the Basque country that is really A-1 but with the provincial government refusing to renumber) because the state is proud to highlight that this isn't a federal motorway.
The only place where "A-1" is called N-I is where it don't fits autovia standards (Etxegarate port and near with speed limits of 30km/h on some places)
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Old January 5th, 2016, 09:27 AM   #5936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Spain also has a substantially larger area than Germany, the difference is some 150.000 km².

Spain has approximately the same land area as Germany + Austria + Switzerland + the Netherlands. It is often underrated how big Spain actually is by European standards. It also has many population centers spread out across the country, separated by vast sparsely populated rural areas, which demands many different motorway routes, unlike the UK or Italy where a large share of population is served by just 4 or 5 motorways.
I've been to Barcelona last year so I've kind of felt the sheer size of the country. Its just odd that Germany gets so much attention over its autobahn network based on no speed limits and it being the first motorways in the world yet the autopistas are much larger in numbers and serve more per capita.
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Old January 5th, 2016, 11:54 AM   #5937
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Well... you have been moving within a high dense population area. That's the reason you will have seen so many motorways and heavy traffic
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Old January 5th, 2016, 02:56 PM   #5938
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Quote:
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The only place where "A-1" is called N-I is where it don't fits autovia standards (Etxegarate port and near with speed limits of 30km/h on some places)
IIRC N-I between San Sebastián and Etxegarate pass has "Autovía" signage and is still signed N-I. There are more roads like this in the Basque Country, such as N-637 in Bilbao. They have their own numbering system, and they've just kept the old Spanish national numbers.
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Old January 5th, 2016, 03:58 PM   #5939
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Well... you have been moving within a high dense population area. That's the reason you will have seen so many motorways and heavy traffic
No... the fact is that Spains motorway network is a lot bigger than the autobahn network in Germany.
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Old January 5th, 2016, 04:05 PM   #5940
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If you take the German motorway-like roads (Autobahnähnliche Straße or Gelbe Autobahn) into account, both countries have approximately the same motorway length.

Although the standards of the Autobahnähnliche Straße vary somewhat. Some do not have shoulders or are on a substandard alignment. Of course the Spanish autovía also has segments that are somewhat substandard, but most of it has been eliminated in recent years. The Spanish autovía is much less substandard than many Italian superstrade.
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