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Old August 31st, 2016, 09:05 PM   #6301
ChrisZwolle
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I clinched ARA-A1 and A-14 today

I also drove A-23 to Monrepos Pass, quite scenic. A-22 is also not as flat as I imagined it to be. AP-2 is much flatter.

The Zaragoza ring road is very adequate, very spacious and nearly entirely 120 km/h.
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Old August 31st, 2016, 11:17 PM   #6302
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What? You have passed by my hometowm and did not enter? You could have PMed me for a meet. Anyway, you will have driven the 'temporary' two lane road that is actually Southbound A-23 between Nueno and the Isuela gorge, as Northbound has been closed since March due to a rockslide. As for me next Saturday I'll be reclaiming A-21 for the fifth time now (I had it clinched for less than a month last year, until the opening of the Sigües-A-1601 section ruined it).
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 01:00 AM   #6303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I clinched ARA-A1 and A-14 today
On April it remained only 1x1 due to river overflows last year. Now it remains OK


It is the only bridge in 40 km


Quote:
I also drove A-23 to Monrepos Pass, quite scenic. A-22 is also not as flat as I imagined it to be. AP-2 is much flatter.
Monrepos Pass is still N-330!!!
Enjoy it because those lanes will be direction Huesca (direction Jaca will have a 3 km tunnel). To have scenic views... you would have to stop just on the top coming from Jaca, but not going there after A-23 would be finished.




Quote:
The Zaragoza ring road is very adequate, very spacious and nearly entirely 120 km/h.

Only a little tunnel has a 80 km/h limit. Rest is 120.

Barcelona-Madrid takes three minutes more via south than north but has less traffic.

Coming from Z-40 and turning via other direction than Huesca in the Barcelona exit is not easy, Bad curves.


I guess you would have taken Somport tunnel.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:38 AM   #6304
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
.

The Zaragoza ring road is very adequate, very spacious and nearly entirely 120 km/h.
I'm delighted that you did an A to Z of motorways in a day. Only in Spain.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 11:54 AM   #6305
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I drive several times a year on the A to Z section . The oldest part of Z-40, which has been there since the 70s and as such retains km markers and exit numbers from A-2.
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Fomento has approved the project for the refurbishment of the N-260 between Congosto de Ventamillo and Campo, in Aragón. The initial cost is € 46.3 M for 12 km.

Since they have not called for tenders yet (not sure how to translate licitación), I haven't got the PDF with the project, but I've found this webpage with photographs of it: http://www.sergioplaza.es/211-mejora...os-al-valle-de

(Sorry for the quality, I had to resize them):

In short, the road will be widened from 5.5 to 8 m (18 to 26 ft). Seven bridges and 2 tunnels will also be built:

1st tunnel: northern portal / southern portal
2nd tunnel: northern portal / southern portal

However, the worst (or best) stretch, the Congosto del Ventamillo, will remain basically untouched for environmental reasons, except for the refurbishment of the road surface:

I'm not sure if this is a good idea, though. They should probably re-route the N-260 via the current HU-V-9601 (don't get fooled by its number, it's actually quite good) and A-1605, which Google maps says is faster:

The only downside is that A-1605 has some stretches just as narrow as the current N-260. However, fixing just a part of the current N-260 will probably attract more traffic and the Congosto del Ventamillo will remain a bottleneck.
That realignment was first proposed by me in the regional forums. The Huesca diputacion rebuilt HU-V-9601 a couple years ago.
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 12:05 PM   #6306
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Can't they build a tunnels through the mountain over that sensitive canyon? Aragon is full of canyons anyway, they could build a one lane bypass over the river suspended partially over the current road which would become one lane as well
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 03:58 PM   #6307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Aragon is full of canyons anyway, they could build a one lane bypass over the river suspended partially over the current road which would become one lane as well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post

However, the worst (or best) stretch, the Congosto del Ventamillo, will remain basically untouched for environmental reasons, except for the refurbishment of the road surface
..
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:06 PM   #6308
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They also built a new route of N-260 west of Fiscal a while ago. I took N-260a. Some parts of N-260 are ridiculously narrow for a carretera nacional.

Some white roads on Michelin maps are in fact very good 100 km/h roads. I drove to Hecho and this is a wide and straight 'white' road, while the white road in the next valley was a 40-60 km/h drag...
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 06:31 PM   #6309
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Did you go to Monte Perdido?
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 07:59 PM   #6310
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Aragón hasn't so many tunnels at all.

N260 tunnel was 12years on Works
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Old September 2nd, 2016, 10:00 PM   #6311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
They also built a new route of N-260 west of Fiscal a while ago. I took N-260a. Some parts of N-260 are ridiculously narrow for a carretera nacional.

Some white roads on Michelin maps are in fact very good 100 km/h roads. I drove to Hecho and this is a wide and straight 'white' road, while the white road in the next valley was a 40-60 km/h drag...
I agree. There are some national roads that are more like goat paths and 'goat paths' (i.e. Provincial roads) that are almost motorways. By the way, don't trust the road colors of Michelin Maps, better use the color coding we have. That 'white' road to Echo (I prefer this spelling, which is Aragonese) is in fact pretty high in the scale being an 'orange' (1st orden regional, almost national) road: A-176 (Presumibly numbered to match Navarre, as otherwise that '7' cannot be explained with the numbering system Aragon uses, a remnant of Plan Peña). And by 'the white road in the next valley' you mean A-1602? That road was reported to be under repaving works a few days ago.
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 11:27 AM   #6312
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A-1602 was just chip sealed again over 20 km.

A-176 is quite wide (and curvy) from Hecho to Ansó, but a narrow, poorly maintained road to the Navarra border. Then NA-176 is quite alright for a lightly traveled mountain road.

What is the deal with Yesa? I saw 'no Yesa' slogans everywhere. Are they enlargening the reservoir? It's almost empty now... They also built a large viaduct near Sigüés that is not open yet.
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 03:59 PM   #6313
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Is it correct that no roads in Navarra are maintained by Fomento? I drove A-10, A-15, AP-15 and A-21 today and they had signs that they belonged to the Navarra road network. If so, are there other regions like that? (Basque Country perhaps).
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 04:15 PM   #6314
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Like you always say Chris a motorway on the Meseta costs as little as €2m a km for 2+2. An enhanced goat track in the Pyrenees could cost €10m a km for 1+1 and you also need a 3rd foot escape tunnel if you go for 2+2 in many cases.

Fomento has no remit in the Basque country and the Basques are building a massive Rail project called the "Basque Y" instead of roads.
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 04:37 PM   #6315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Is it correct that no roads in Navarra are maintained by Fomento? I drove A-10, A-15, AP-15 and A-21 today and they had signs that they belonged to the Navarra road network. If so, are there other regions like that? (Basque Country perhaps).
Only AP-68 (and A-15 South of Tudela when it gets built, which won't be anytime soon) is maintained by Fomento, all other roads are maintained by the chartered region. Same happens in Basque Country and the islands. Coincidentally I was also in Navarre this morning and I drove on A-21 and AP-15 (but I saw no Dutch cars) and I did something Spaniards don't like to do: Pay a toll. AP-15 between Pamplona and Tafalla costed me 3,60 aurei (as I call the euro, like the golden Roman currency).
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 07:00 PM   #6316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponge_bob View Post
Fomento has no remit in the Basque country and the Basques are building a massive Rail project called the "Basque Y" instead of roads.
Basque Country has a very complete motorway network. I don't think they need massive new motorway projects, except for the completion of the missing links from Durango to Beasain. All sizeable towns are connected by motorway.
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 07:13 PM   #6317
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Quote:
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Basque Country has a very complete motorway network. I don't think they need massive new motorway projects,
They may need another few bypasses given how old the Motorway network is up north and the Bilbao Supersur Bypass cost €50m a km. There are simply no cheap options for any major infrastructure in the North of Spain.
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 08:02 PM   #6318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Is it correct that no roads in Navarra are maintained by Fomento? I drove A-10, A-15, AP-15 and A-21 today and they had signs that they belonged to the Navarra road network. If so, are there other regions like that? (Basque Country perhaps).
Yes, the Basque provinces and Navarra have a "régimen foral", they have more autonomy than other autonomous comunities. They have their own tax system (except VAT and customs), are responsible for roads and land use. There are some exceptions like AP-1 and AP-68 that are managed by fomento, but the toll concession of AP-1 is in the hands of the Álava and Vizcaya provinces.
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Old September 3rd, 2016, 08:20 PM   #6319
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Like you always say Chris a motorway on the Meseta costs as little as €2m a km for 2+2. An enhanced goat track in the Pyrenees could cost €10m a km for 1+1 and you also need a 3rd foot escape tunnel if you go for 2+2 in many cases.

Fomento has no remit in the Basque country and the Basques are building a massive Rail project called the "Basque Y" instead of roads.
That is only true regarding road infrastructure - and not even that, as the AP-68 and part of the AP-1 still belong to Fomento.

But Fomento does have remits in the Basque Country: The ports of Pasajes and Bilbao (Puertos del Estado), the airports of Bilbao-Sondika, Vitoria-Foronda, San Sebastián-Hondarribia (AENA) and several railway lines and stations (ADIF).

In fact the western and southern "legs" of the Basque Y (Bergara-Vitoria and Bergara-Bilbao) are being built by Fomento via ADIF. The eastern leg, to San Sebastián and the French border, is indeed being built by the Basque government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mundial View Post
Yes, the Basque provinces and Navarra have a "régimen foral", they have more autonomy than other autonomous comunities. They have their own tax system (except VAT and customs), are responsible for roads and land use. There are some exceptions like AP-1 and AP-68 that are managed by fomento, but the toll concession of AP-1 is in the hands of the Álava and Vizcaya provinces.
Just to clarify things : The AP-1 from Miranda de Ebro to Armiñón (south of Vitoria-Gasteiz) belongs to Fomento.

The "northern" AP-1 (Vitoria-Eibar) is indeed managed by Álava/Araba and Guipúzcoa/Gipuzkoa provinces, not Vizcaya/Bizkaia.


I hope you all enjoyed your daily dose of Spanish peculiarities
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Old September 4th, 2016, 04:52 AM   #6320
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I hope you all enjoyed your daily dose of Spanish peculiarities
I know the Spanish have BOTH the largest Motorway and the largest High Speed Rail networks in Europe but please don't tell us how the rail network is 'named' or by which official bit of Spain.
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