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Old October 8th, 2016, 05:35 PM   #6461
ChrisZwolle
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But even by Spanish standards some 4,000 vehicles per day is very low for autovía construction.

The low construction cost (some € 5 million/km) obviously results in a much better cost-benefit ratio than a project for a similar traffic volume in Germany or Belgium.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 06:18 PM   #6462
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A-15 between Medinaceli and Soria could have been perfectly built as a half-profile expressway with two lanes (although with some sections of 2+1), exactly as C-25 in Catalonia before it was upgraded to motorway standards.

The same pattern could also be applied to other motorways currently under construction where current traffic volumes aren't that high (A-32 or A-11, for instance).

However Soria is a provincial capital. And in Spain most people have got used to having an autovía to every provincial capital no matter how low traffic figures are. And as politicians always get some political credit for that, no one dares to change our model.

Something similar happens with the development of our high speed rail (HSR) network. 15 years ago a Spanish prime minister promised that every provincial capital would have a HSR connection with Madrid. Since then all governments have continued with that policy, and politicians from major parties don't dare to change it so as not to lose electoral support in some regions.

As in the case of autovías, politicians from minor cities feel often discriminated when HSR reaches another city instead of theirs.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 06:31 PM   #6463
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I noticed that A-68 has two sets of exit numbering.

In Aragón, it increases east to west (in the 200 range). In Navarra, it increases west to east (in the low 100s range). The starting point in Navarra appears to be Logroño (or maybe Pamplona?)
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Old October 8th, 2016, 06:38 PM   #6464
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Fuerteventura

Finally some updates from official sources regarding motorway projects in Fuerteventura, Canary Islands:

Quote:
FV2: Costa Calma – north of El Salmo 6.9km (? to September 2016) – ? – map
Delayed to December 2016. But according to the official sources, only the 2.5 km between Costa Calma and this roundabout will open. No info about the rest of the section up to El Salmo (Pecenescal according to the project).

Quote:
FV1: Corralejo – Caldereta 18km (? to Early 2017) – ? – map
Delayed to September 2017.

Sources:

http://www.canarias7.es/articulo.cfm?id=435975

http://www.noticanarias.com/2016/09/...fuerteventura/
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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:00 PM   #6465
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Granada

Quote:
GR43: Pinos Puente – Atarfe (A44) 9.7km (? to 2016) – projectmap
Works have just been restarted, current degree of execution is just 21%. Opening expected in 2019, according to the financial program of the government. It can't open in 2016 by any means.

http://www.ideal.es/granada/provinci...821202134.html

Besides, there's an ongoing conflict with some farmers regarding the effects of the construction works to their lands and its environmental impact, that's the last news I've found:

http://www.granadadigital.es/agricul...ias-y-caminos/

http://www.granadadigital.es/tachan-...-paralizacion/

Quote:
A44: Atarfe (N432) – Santa Fe (A92G) 3km (2007 to 2016) – projectmap

A44: Santa Fe (A92G) – Las Gabias (A338) 8.7km (2009 to suspended) – projectmap
There was an official visit to the works today. An MP from the ruling party (PP) said that the whole project will open in 2018 (including a third section where works haven't started yet). However she didn't give details about partial openings of those sections that are in a more advanced stage of construction.

The current degrees of execution are 70% for the first section (Atarfe - Sante Fe) and 64% for the second one (Santa Fe - Las Gabias), where works aren't suspended anymore.



http://www.ideal.es/granada/201610/0...008120343.html



http://www.ideal.es/granada/provinci...821202134.html
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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:01 PM   #6466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think it's almost a miracle A-15 got built from Medinaceli to Soria. According to Fomento, the road carries only 4,500 vehicles per day. I understand the need to connect a remote provincial capital to the motorway network, but dang, that's a low traffic volume.

In the Netherlands such a traffic volume would be considered appropriate for a 60 km/h road without a center lane marking...
A-15 between Medinaceli and Soria was built in order to connect the latter to Madrid with a motorway. And yes, is damn empty, especially a Sunday afternoon like when I drove part of it. A 60 km/h road without center marking would be too substandard for such a volume.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I noticed that A-68 has two sets of exit numbering.

In Aragón, it increases east to west (in the 200 range). In Navarra, it increases west to east (in the low 100s range). The starting point in Navarra appears to be Logroño (or maybe Pamplona?)
The starting point in Navarre is indeed Pamplona. Since every road in Navarre besides AP-68 is maintained by the chartered region they use their own km posts, thus causing a break in N-232's (which A-68 in Aragon follows). It stops counting from Vinaros at the Aragon/Navarre crossing, then resumes doing so upon entering Rioja. I've extrapolated those across Navarre riverside for consistency. Another example is the Tudela-Tarazona road, which is N-121-C in Navarre and plain N-121 in Aragon, I refer to all of it as N-121-C (even the part in Aragon).
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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:36 PM   #6467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I noticed that A-68 has two sets of exit numbering.

In Aragón, it increases east to west (in the 200 range). In Navarra, it increases west to east (in the low 100s range). The starting point in Navarra appears to be Logroño (or maybe Pamplona?)
A68 is numbered as same as N232 except in Navarra where they point distances to Pamplona.

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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:50 PM   #6468
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A-136 Puerto de Portalet

The Puerto de Portalet (French: Col du Pourtalet) is a 1794 meter high mountain pass on the border of Spain and France.


1. Coming from Biescas, traffic has to gain almost 1000 meters.

A-136 Portalet-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. A-136 has quite a long section above the tree line.

A-136 Portalet-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. There are a number of skiing areas along A-136.

A-136 Portalet-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The 2884 meter tall Pic du Midi d'Ossau. Interestingly, this mountain is not on the border, but entirely in France. Often the highest peaks are directly on the border.

A-136 Portalet-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. A-136 has a climbing lane.

A-136 Portalet-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. On top of the Puerto de Portalet, with a view into France.

A-136 Portalet-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7.

A-136 Portalet-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The summit. There are no border checks here.

A-136 Portalet-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. The summit as seen from Spain

A-136 Portalet-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. And from France.

A-136 Portalet-10 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old October 8th, 2016, 07:50 PM   #6469
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Valladolid-León and Palencia-Benavente could do without a motorway, but some bypasses are really needed:
Medina de Rioseco, Becilla de Valderaduey (where N-610 and N-601 meet) and Villalón de Campos.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I noticed that A-68 has two sets of exit numbering.

In Aragón, it increases east to west (in the 200 range). In Navarra, it increases west to east (in the low 100s range). The starting point in Navarra appears to be Logroño (or maybe Pamplona?)
I'm pretty sure it's Pamplona. Every major road in Navarra has its starting point in Pamplona.

Sometimes it can get ridiculous: In the past, the numbering in the N-121 increased from south to north (the starting point was Madrid). However, the road authorities of Navarre decided that the starting point should be Pamplona, so they had to divide the road in 4 different segments:

N-121 Pamplona-Tudela
N-121-C Tudela-Aragón (the starting point is Tudela)
N-121-A Pamplona-Oronoz (Oronoz-Behobia wasn't a part of the original N-121)
N-121-B Oronoz-Dantxarinea
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:37 PM   #6470
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If you have a second look to photo numer 10, former booths are in the left building. Today is a bi-national point of culture and tourism (being a shared building it was built exactly in the summit/border.

I the picture number 8 you have in the right the new building for maintenance where trucks cannot entry (bad designed)

And again in number 10 we can see how asap you cross border, plenty of shops due to taxes. First petrol station is five km away in the Formigal ski resort (biggest in Spain) and they have a specific system for Frech credit cards (I guess with a French bank) to pay less bank fees


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
The Puerto de Portalet (French: Col du Pourtalet) is a 1794 meter high mountain pass on the border of Spain and France.


1. Coming from Biescas, traffic has to gain almost 1000 meters.

A-136 Portalet-1 by European Roads, on Flickr

2. A-136 has quite a long section above the tree line.

A-136 Portalet-2 by European Roads, on Flickr

3. There are a number of skiing areas along A-136.

A-136 Portalet-3 by European Roads, on Flickr

4. The 2884 meter tall Pic du Midi d'Ossau. Interestingly, this mountain is not on the border, but entirely in France. Often the highest peaks are directly on the border.

A-136 Portalet-4 by European Roads, on Flickr

5. A-136 has a climbing lane.

A-136 Portalet-5 by European Roads, on Flickr

6. On top of the Puerto de Portalet, with a view into France.

A-136 Portalet-6 by European Roads, on Flickr

7.

A-136 Portalet-7 by European Roads, on Flickr

8. The summit. There are no border checks here.

A-136 Portalet-8 by European Roads, on Flickr

9. The summit as seen from Spain

A-136 Portalet-9 by European Roads, on Flickr

10. And from France.

A-136 Portalet-10 by European Roads, on Flickr
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Old October 8th, 2016, 08:47 PM   #6471
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I took a selfie with the French speed limits sign in late August .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
Sometimes it can get ridiculous: In the past, the numbering in the N-121 increased from south to north (the starting point was Madrid). However, the road authorities of Navarre decided that the starting point should be Pamplona, so they had to divide the road in 4 different segments:

N-121 Pamplona-Tudela
N-121-C Tudela-Aragón (the starting point is Tudela)
N-121-A Pamplona-Oronoz (Oronoz-Behobia wasn't a part of the original N-121)
N-121-B Oronoz-Dantxarinea
Yup. As I said N-121 is also the Aragonese section of the Tudela-Tarazona road, which I also call N-121-C for consistency. N-121-A past Oronoz was C-133 until the eighties, and the short section in Guipuscoa was at first signed as plain N-121 (Fortunately they changed it to match Navarre, unlike Fomento). And to top that, N-121 suddenly becomes N-113 upon crossing NA-134. Before the eighties, N-113 was part of C-101 (which extended all the way to Guadalajara!) and N-121 followed what is now NA-134 to Tudela.
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Old October 8th, 2016, 09:35 PM   #6472
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Hell, 42,000 vehicles per day on a two-lane road? GI-636, former N-I in Errenteria, Basque Country.

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Old October 9th, 2016, 01:59 PM   #6473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
But even by Spanish standards some 4,000 vehicles per day is very low for autovía construction.

The low construction cost (some € 5 million/km) obviously results in a much better cost-benefit ratio than a project for a similar traffic volume in Germany or Belgium.
In the UK the recommended standards for new rural roads are as follows:

STANDARD -- OPENING YEAR AADT
S2 -- Up to 13,000
WS2 -- 6,000-21,000
D2AP -- 11,000-39,000
D3AP -- 23,000-54,000
D2M -- Up to 41,000
D3M -- 25,000-67,000
D4M -- 52,000-90,000

S2 means two lane undivided, WS2 is wide two lane undivided, D2AP is four lane divided not under motorway conditions, D2M means four lane divided under motorway conditions (including hard shoulders).

The Scottish government has schemes to complete dualling of the A9 between Inverness and Perth, and the A96 between Inverness and Aberdeen, with both roads largely well below 11,000 AADT. These are the lowest AADT major dualling schemes in the UK by some distance, and are arguably a case of the SNP government 'rewarding' their Highlands and North East Scotland powerbase now they've got power. Certainly it's not because these schemes are cheap or economically efficient - estimates are around £6 billion!

Maybe something similar is going on with the Spanish example...
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Old October 9th, 2016, 02:37 PM   #6474
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I've discovered that at one point Alava extends all the way to Cadagua river, and as result BI-636 gets outside Biscay for a while. However since it has no exits in this short section there is no point to change it to A-636, much like NA-134 doesn't become LR-131 where Rioja crosses to the other side of Ebro river (even if it's defined as such). This didn't happen to old C-6318 (now BI-6351) as it stayed on the left bank of Cadagua river, while the current motorway is on the right bank.
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Old October 9th, 2016, 06:45 PM   #6475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by italystf View Post
I wonder how many foreign drivers do understand that Bayona and Burdeos are actually Bayonne and Bordeaux. I think foreign cities should always be signposted in their native name (or English name, if there's one widely used). And of course an oval would help too.
For example, Slovenia and Croatia used to signpost Trst only, but in new signs now there's always Trst/Trieste.
it took me a while when i realized what Nizza and Lione were
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Old October 11th, 2016, 01:00 AM   #6476
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About some roads.

The Spanish long-distance roads which has more transit are the radials, the sub-radials, the coastal ones, and some transversal corridors.

Because Spanish has so many sparse populated areas it's more useful to unite two or more infraestructure to do more than one itinerary. In some cases, i think it was an error (Honrubia-La Roda was an error, using N-301* would be a better idea) but in general, is fine.

Many of the proposed roads with low AADT are roads whose main purpose can be achieved better with other already made motorways. But in someplaces (specially in the north and east) there's a problem: toll motorways.

The problem with N-122 is the same problem with N-II in Aragon at smaller scale. Valladolid-Zaragoza has a motorway alternative, the problem is that implies paying tolls until Burgos. And tolls in spanish roads are expensive compared to the economic level. And I'm talking anout profitable historic motorways (The Franco ones and Malaga-Estepona).

N-627 has a similar but smaller problem. Many traffic doesn't go to Valladolid because it implies going to Tordesillas + playing 12 € on a 70 km toll.

Howevwr, with N-322 it doesn't happen. Why? Because using A-43 doesn't mean that we're going to pay toll motorways.

*Made one road Madrid-Valencia, another Ocaña-Albacete-Alicante, and another Albacete-Murcia-Cartagena. Traffic for Tarancon and the like can go via current CM-220 (N-320) or JCCM could adapt Honrubia-La Roda and made a CM-3XX.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 10:30 AM   #6477
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
I think it's almost a miracle A-15 got built from Medinaceli to Soria. According to Fomento, the road carries only 4,500 vehicles per day. I understand the need to connect a remote provincial capital to the motorway network, but dang, that's a low traffic volume.

In the Netherlands such a traffic volume would be considered appropriate for a 60 km/h road without a center lane marking...
Is that the autovia/autopista with the lowest AADT in Spain?
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Old October 11th, 2016, 11:43 AM   #6478
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I guess some tolled autopistas built during the real estate bubble have a lower AADT.

AP-7 between Cartagena and Vera or also AP-7 in the second Alicante bypass could be good examples, but their low AADT is due to the existence of alternative free motorways.

So among the State-built autovías A-15 between Medinaceli and Soria could be the one with the lowest AADT.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 11:59 AM   #6479
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The tolled motorway from Madrid to Toledo AP-41 has an AADT of 785 v/d, but as you stated there is a free parrallel alternative autovia.
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Old October 11th, 2016, 12:19 PM   #6480
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Driving through AP-8 between Bilbao and Azpeitia

Driving through AP-8, N-634 and GI-2634 between Bilbao and Azpeitia. The basque traditional roads infrastructure and the AP-8 built around 1970.

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