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Old October 13th, 2016, 05:16 PM   #6501
verreme
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Barcelona metro area has a lot of toll-free autopistes: B-20, C-32, C-31, C-58, B-23 and C-16.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 08:17 PM   #6502
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True. Also, the main islands (Tenerife, Gran Canaria and Majorca) have some toll-free autopistas (TF-1, TF-5, GC-1, Ma-19...).

ChrisZwolle's question is trickier than it seems, though . Are we talking only about autovías (with the AUTOVÍA sign) with all the features mentioned by ChrisZwolle? Or do toll-free autopistas (with the motorway sign) count too?

Because the A-31 Honrubia-La Roda used to have the motorway/autopista sign until a couple years ago when they were all replaced by AUTOVÍA signs.

The A-15 is signed as an autopista in Gipuzkoa but as an AUTOBIA (Basque for autovía) in Navarre.

The A-52 is a special case: First, there's an "expressway" sign (which bans non-motor traffic), then there's the AUTOVÍA sign: https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0298...7i13312!8i6656



A-49, A-8/A-66 (Asturian Y), A-8 Bilbao-Santander, A-67 Santander-Torrelavega, BI-636, M-40, M-45, M-50 and the ones in the Barcelona metro area are all signed as motorways/autopistas (all of them toll-free).

However, A-52, A-66 Benavente-León, A-23 Zuera-Huesca, A-1 Ariñez-Egino or A-7 Alicante-Murcia were also built to autopista standards, but have always been signed as autovías.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 08:36 PM   #6503
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Well, I meant autovías which are built to autopista standards (i.e. road design) while not necessarily having autopista status (the chopsticks sign).

But what is the deal with the chopsticks signs being placed on non-toll roads? Apparently there is reason to make a distinction between untolled autovías and untolled autopistas. Is there a legal reason to make that distinction? (for example the occasional bicycle use on autovías?)
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Old October 13th, 2016, 11:26 PM   #6504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woonsocket54 View Post
Finishing the nothern bypass of Burgos (as seen in post # 6485) could result in a quicker journey between Zaragoza and Leon. Currently Google Maps shows a 4 hr 7 min drive (without traffic) between Zaragoza-Plaza del Pilar and Leon-Plaza Mayor. The finished bypass may result in a reduction by a few minutes.
Not surely. Have asked local forumers and said four minutes longer. On the other hand, less traffic indeed.

In addition, the most important work will be 4 km besides A-1 in that area... and will drive cars through south instead of north.
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Old October 13th, 2016, 11:38 PM   #6505
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
Other cases of toll-free autopista designs that come to my mind could be the A-15 Irurtzun-Andoain, BI-636 Bilbao-Güeñes, M-40, M-45, M-50 in Madrid (again, these even have the chopsticks sign), A-1 Ariñez-Egino or A-23 Zaragoza-Huesca.
A-23 Zaragoza-Villanueva was a N-330 upgrade limited to 80 somewhere...


Nowadays it is ready to have always somewhere for pedestrians, bikes and so on.... but they just refurbished this curve
https://www.google.es/maps/@41.76456.../data=!3m1!1e3
to save money (former road bypass at Villanueva)

Rest of motorway Villanueva-Huesca is completely new
It is very usual to see bikes here
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.00310.../data=!3m1!1e3
in the N-330 due to lack of traffic

Huesca by-pass is a N-330 upgrade but just this curve is limited to 100.
https://www.google.es/maps/@42.12530.../data=!3m1!1e3

Rest to 120

Huesca-Nueno is independent to N330

Nueno - after all tunnels will (and is) use all current N330

after all tunnels - Jaca will be (is) completely new


On the other hand, Zaragoza-Sagunto is absolutely independent to N330/N234 until Segorbe except in the Ragudo pass


Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
True. Also, the main islands (Tenerife, Gran Canaria and Majorca) have some toll-free autopistas (TF-1, TF-5, GC-1, Ma-19...).

Fuerteventura too
https://www.google.es/maps/@28.08344...7i13312!8i6656
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Old October 14th, 2016, 04:30 PM   #6506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Well, I meant autovías which are built to autopista standards (i.e. road design) while not necessarily having autopista status (the chopsticks sign).

But what is the deal with the chopsticks signs being placed on non-toll roads? Apparently there is reason to make a distinction between untolled autovías and untolled autopistas. Is there a legal reason to make that distinction? (for example the occasional bicycle use on autovías?)
Our driving code states that autovías have limitación parcial de acceso a las propiedades colindantes (partial access restriction) whilst autopistas have limitación total de acceso (...) (total access restriction). Plus, cyclists are not banned from autovías. All other features are the same for both categories. This made a lot of sense in the 1980s and 90s because first-generation autovías were just that. Today, virtually all autovías have total access restriction, and cyclists are banned with signs on on-ramps.

However, as Highway89 said, there were also some differences in the design parameters until the mid-90s. This is why there are toll-free autopistas: they were designed before that date. Newer autopistas are toll roads, though there are some exceptions (autopistas in the Canary Islands, for example).
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Old October 14th, 2016, 04:59 PM   #6507
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Are there any national roads in Ceuta and Melila?
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Old October 14th, 2016, 06:33 PM   #6508
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in ceuta they are , not in melilla , i dont know the reason ( see google maps )
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Old October 14th, 2016, 08:54 PM   #6509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
Well, I meant autovías which are built to autopista standards (i.e. road design) while not necessarily having autopista status (the chopsticks sign).

But what is the deal with the chopsticks signs being placed on non-toll roads? Apparently there is reason to make a distinction between untolled autovías and untolled autopistas. Is there a legal reason to make that distinction? (for example the occasional bicycle use on autovías?)
As verreme has pointed out, bicycles are expressly banned on most autovías, so it would make more sense to just use the chopsticks sign, therefore we'd only have to use one sign instead of two.




Anyway, I'd turn your question around : Why is the chopsticks sign not placed on autovías that have autopista standards? IMO, there might be "political" reasons. In some regions, such as La Rioja, autopistas are always associated with tolls. If you ask a random driver what the differences between an autovía and an autopista are, 90% of them will say: "autopistas are tolled, autovías aren't". This might be due to the fact that the only autopistas in and around La Rioja have always been tolled (AP-68, AP-1, AP-15).

It's kind of stupid if you think about it, but yes, autovías have a better image than autopistas among voters.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 09:36 PM   #6510
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Some autovías do allow cyclists, I suppose autopistas never allow cyclists?

By the way I agree with your statement that autovías should get in line with the rest of Europe and use the chopsticks sign. The current autovía sign looks like a low-standard divided highway while it is in fact a high-quality controlled-access highway.
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Old October 14th, 2016, 09:59 PM   #6511
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Yep, the law says that cyclists are allowed on autovías unless there's a specific prohibiton sign. On autopistas they're never allowed.

Even tractors are sometimes allowed on autovías. For instance, on some stretches of the LO-20 in Logroño during the grape harvest season. Of course, variable-message signs are used to prevent drivers (they say things like "Warning: watch out for slow agricultural vehicles"). This is an exception, though.
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Old October 15th, 2016, 09:24 PM   #6512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway89 View Post
A-49
A-49 has a lot of parclo's, or partial cloverleafs, between Sevilla and Huelva. Google Earth imagery shows them already in the early 2000s, before A-49 was modernized.

The first segment of A-49 already opened in 1969 and was extended to Sanlúcar in 1977. I'm wondering if they already had parclo's back then, because in those days the partial cloverleaf was not very widespread in most countries (diamond interchanges were the most common interchange configuration).

The other earlier non-tolled autopistas (A3-A31, A-66) also have a few partial cloverleafs. Perhaps it was a design standard (possibly copied from Germany?) that was used in autopista construction, but not in autovía construction? Partial cloverleafs seem rare on first or next generation autovías
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Old October 15th, 2016, 10:58 PM   #6513
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Are there any national roads in Ceuta and Melila?
Ceuta, no, Melilla, yes.... and I would state, I remember seeing road to border in Ceuta as a N-3XX

In addition, some roads, not CE-XXX or ML-XXX are managed by central government, not local one.

And... according to 1940ish plan, they should be N-7XX (roads in African continent. In those years, half Morocco, Sahara and Equatorial Guinea)
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Old October 16th, 2016, 12:05 AM   #6514
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Don't know about Melilla (in Google Maps no road is tagged as N-xxx) but in Ceuta both of the roads that connect Benzú to the city are "nacionales", unless I'm missing something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisZwolle View Post
A-49 has a lot of parclo's, or partial cloverleafs, between Sevilla and Huelva. Google Earth imagery shows them already in the early 2000s, before A-49 was modernized.

The first segment of A-49 already opened in 1969 and was extended to Sanlúcar in 1977. I'm wondering if they already had parclo's back then, because in those days the partial cloverleaf was not very widespread in most countries (diamond interchanges were the most common interchange configuration).
For Andalusia (as well as for other regions - I could check which ones if you are insterested, but for the moment I can confirm Madrid is one of them) you can see the old aerial photos yourself.

Go here, move within the map wherever you want and zoom up to a city scale or even closer. Then choose any of the "vuelos" (meaning flights - you have to choose one which is available in the area, little squares will show up all over the map in that case). Once you are there, check in the "productos disponibles" area and click on any of the picture icons at their right. A viewer will open in which, at its upper right edge, there's a tiny icon for displaying the options menu which allows you to choose the year of the flight. You have 1956, 1977-85, and then later, more recent flights. On top of the viewer there's an option for displaying two photos at a time (in order to make comparisons).

Last edited by Nolke; October 16th, 2016 at 12:42 AM.
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Old October 16th, 2016, 12:15 AM   #6515
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I think you are right
And... ML-101
https://www.google.es/maps/@35.29187.../data=!3m1!1e3

is going to be 2x2, payed by Fomento
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Old October 16th, 2016, 12:51 AM   #6516
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A-49 is a unique case. It was completed in 1978, but between Sanlucar la Mayor and Huelva it was an 1x1 expressway with the name A-49. It was expanded to 2x2 in 1988-1990, except CN-435-Huelva, who was a motorway since 1981.

First generation autovias were different from autopistas. In the first generation were made using the old road except on by-pass. The difference is that depending of the time of construction it was differently.

At first, autovias were simply duplications of existing roads. Nothing else.
With Spain entering the CEE, it was forced that autovias doesn't have level crossings ( and forced that in one of them, same-level crossings were eliminated).

But at that time autovias were made with the objective of making guaranteed 80 km/h and a maximum of 100 km/h.In other words, they could adapt roads that safely allow 100 km/h. The exception was Porriño-Vigo because making a 100 km/h requires a very long and expensive tunnel.

At the same time, some autopistas we're made. In particular, projects of autopistas that were planned before. EX: Alicante-Murcia. Those motorways has always had a 120 km/h speed limit, blue signals , guaranteed signalization advice...

In 1991-92, something change. The goverment made a new signal catalogue that saids that autopistas and autovias are signed with blue signals, guaranteed signalizations and shares the speed limit to 120. The trams that can allow that (and even in sections that it shouldn't (parts of A-31).

By that time, the design of autovias was made more rigid to allow 120 km/h and longer sections are made separated rom the old road.

By 1992 the goverment made a new plan with new autovias. Basically, those autovias (Vitoria-Alsasua-BeasainCervera-Igualada, Honrubia-Utiel, Sevilla-Dos Hermanas, Puerto de Santa Maria By-pass, Benavente-Lugo-A Coruña, Malaga-Motril, Torrelavega-Pola de Siero, Alsasua-Irurtzun , Zaragoza-Huesca, Cieza-Murcia, Bailen-Linares, Bailen-Jaen-Granada-Durcal, Novelda-Elche-Cartagena, Huelva-Ayamonte, Benavente-Ourense-Vigo, Tordesillas-Salamanca, three sections of silver route (Plasencia-Caceres, Merida-Zafra and N-433-Sevilla) and Puerto Lumbreras-Andalusia limit (here Andalusia are supposed (and did) the autovia since Baza).

Some of them were constructed as 2nd generation autovias. Some of them as a autopistas. Here is when a confusion starts happening. All autovias has to be made with a guarantee 100 km/h , planned to be 120 km/h and with guarantee access to non-motorway vehicles except very specific exceptions.

By that time, autopistas and autovias are becoming similar and the differences are:
-That autovias are made using the basis of a old road and autopistas were using a new alignment.
-That autovoas has more exit density.

The problem arrives when the autopistas A-6 and A-52 are going to open. The problem was that the term autopista is unpopular because people from Galicia saw autopistas = tolls. Because they want to emphasize that these autopistas are free, they named them as autovias.

On the road Madrid-Valencia A-3 is going to have a few more kms than N-III. To evade confusion between changed km posts, they decided to extend the name A-3 until Valencia, including sections that were made using the old N-III.

By the early 2000s the difference between autopistas and autovias are that autopistas may be tolled. By that time, the majority of new motorways are going to be made with A-XX signs and putting N-XXX was the exception.

In 2003, the goverment decided that autovias are going to use A-XX like autopistas. For the access of citoes, they use the UU-XX with UU being city letters Because they were cases of autopistas and autovias running paralell to each other they decided that toll motorway use AP instead of A (this was supposedly made to not force to change the pk of current autopistas and not forced two A-2s, two A-4s for a few years).

Where they can, they changed the pks of N-XXX to A-XX. Where they can't, they wait a few years to change tje km posts to A-XX or they had a provisional pk (example: A-23 Zaragoza-Huesca). When they have a clear ides of what pk is, they change the incorrect pks to match the real kilometres.

What's the deal with A-7. The reason is that A-7 is a road of 1.100 km which some of his sections weren't made clear in 2004. When it was made as A-7 they used the pks of the pks of the roads that used to have. (Some of them has old A-7 (because was A-7), others the one of N-340 and a stretch was made based on old A-36 (Alicante-Alcoy por Castalla).

What has been done with N-340 in 1988-199? wasn't possible with A-7 (yes, N-340 used to be Cadiz-Motril, Motril-Murcia, Murcia-Valencia and Valencia-Barcelona from 1950 plan. And they were two Murcia-Valencia, the Murcia-Valencia of the 1950 plan, and the historic road Murcia-Valencia. The 1950 plan used N-340 but historic Murcia-Valencia was N-340 + N-332). It was made to eliminate references to historic roads (there were many cases) and eliminate cases of multiple pks (in the late 80's it would not be rare to see congestion at pks 250-280 in 4 different places at the same time.

Thos is the reason why nowadays the central goverment puts pk 0 of A-31 on Atalaya and not in Madrid. Mainly to evade confusion
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Old October 16th, 2016, 12:57 AM   #6517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nolke View Post
Don't know about Melilla (in Google Maps no road is tagged as N-xxx) but in Ceuta both of the roads that connect Benzú to the city are "nacionales", unless I'm missing something.
Melilla has a nacional. It's called N-Nador or "N a Nador" and there's even a Red de Carreteras del Estado sign with the road name. It's the road to Beni-Enzar border crossing, the city's busiest.

AFAIK it's also the only numberless carretera nacional in Spain. It appears as "N-Nador" in official documents.
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Old October 16th, 2016, 08:31 PM   #6518
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A-54

Interesting, A-54 has / had exit numbering in the 700s apparently.



The other direction has Exit 91 signed. A-54 appears to be considered to run from Santiago to Lugo, but exit numbering starts at 0 in Lugo and then increases westward. However, having A-54 starting in Santiago isn't a strange mindset, considering this part of A-54 was long the only segment built.

Oviedo being mentioned is also remarkable by the way.
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Old October 16th, 2016, 08:57 PM   #6519
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It has to do with that part of A-54 being originally part of N-634 (San Sebastián - Santiago de Compostela). Given that N-634 has its km 0 in San Sebastián, and that it's 730 km long (according to wikipedia), that exit was numbered in accordance.

However, this exit numbering is a reminiscence of the times before 2004, when most autovías were just numbered N-xxx like the old national roads they were replacing (similar to what France still does).

Besides, N-634 doesn't follow the coast in Asturias as A-8 currently does, but it goes through Oviedo (roughly following the alignments of A-63 and A-64). That's why Oviedo was signposted there.
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Old October 16th, 2016, 09:27 PM   #6520
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The Spanish road system has so many interesting pecularities
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